# Interesting podcast conversation between Sam Harris and Charles Murray (of "Bell Curve" fame) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 23, 2017, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052 "2017-04-23T09:21:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 69
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1361 "2018-04-25T14:49:56Z")
Quoting EE with an uncited quote allegedly attributable to me doesn’t cut it. Link to my actual post where I cited something, if you want to say it’s my source. If you want to retract the claim that it’s my cite but still use it to advance your own claim, then link to the source itself so I can see the context and verify the numbers. This is basic stuff, c’mon. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1362 "2018-04-25T15:28:55Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > This is offered as sincere advice, not as an insult. Yeah, **GIGO** , be sure to take posting advice from Mr “forgets start of paragraph by the time I reach the end!” ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1363 "2018-04-25T15:33:00Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Quoting EE with an uncited quote allegedly attributable to me doesn’t cut it. Forgotten what you [posted](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20902335&postcount=1177) again, **Slack**? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1364 "2018-04-25T15:36:36Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Quoting EE with an uncited quote allegedly attributable to me doesn’t cut it. Link to my actual post where I cited something, if you want to say it’s my source. If you want to retract the claim that it’s my cite but still use it to advance your own claim, then link to the source itself so I can see the context and verify the numbers. > > This is basic stuff, c’mon. Many thanks to \*\*MrDibble \*\*for citing what for the Slacker is impossible to remember. 😃 But, to be more on point it was dealing with this post: [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20906929&postcount=1232](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20906929&postcount=1232) So, the Slacker does forget what he typed just a few hours or days ago, that figures. Must be the genes what also prevents him fromreading the whole cites. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1365 "2018-04-25T15:47:53Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Also note that your buddy EE is again engaging in his/her predilection for posting quoted text (but without using Dope-style quoteboxes, perhaps to skirt quoting rules) with no links to back the quotes up. I like this comment: You’re basically saying that your own comments are so stupid you find them difficult to believe without a cite. Well, here you go: > [@SlackerInc](#): > > Yes, black schoolchildren have significantly more money spent on their education than do white children in the same district. Yeah, that’s word-for-word exactly the same as it was before. And here’s your “proof” of the above claim (the important bit that you failed to read), also in a quote box: > [@SlackerInc](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > …not all districts spend more money on these students—in the most unequal districts, they receive between $300-$500 less per pupil. Again, exactly the same as in my prior post. Weird how you don’t remember writing this stupid shit. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1366 "2018-04-25T16:21:32Z")
You guys are hilarious, like a Keystone Kops comedy team. First Dibble cites the wrong post. Then GIGO tries to gently correct him while pretending not to correct him, and cites a different post—which is still not the right one! Then EE finally provides a quote which does link to the post in question, and doing so illustrates why he was so reluctant to do so before. I’d quote the whole post, which makes a mockery of your claim about it, but quoting a post on this board does not preserve the quotes embedded within it, which are crucial here. So just go look for yourselves. Here’s the direct link, if that helps: [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20909022&postcount=1282](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20909022&postcount=1282) I’ll keep that link handy just in case anyone is ever dumb enough to try to plow this ground once again. I will however quote my final sentence from that post, just as a reminder to you all: > [@SlackerInc](#): > > You see how every time you goad me to find cites, it ends up being worse for your case than ever? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1367 "2018-04-25T16:25:53Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > You guys are hilarious, like a Keystone Kops comedy team. First Dibble cites the wrong post. Then GIGO tries to gently correct him while pretending not to correct him, and cites a different post—which is still not the right one! Nope, here you are insisting on going back, **where you were also wrong as the cite you point also shows**. The problem is that you are denying now that there was more coming from the researcher you cited too, \*\*that \*\*goes into your convenient memory hole. What I can see here is just willful ignorance of what the researcher that you cited did publish later. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1368 "2018-04-25T16:27:25Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Nope, here you are insisting on going back, **where you were also wrong as the cite you point also shows**. > > The problem is that you are denying now that there was more coming from the researcher you cited too, \*\*that \*\*goes into your convenient memory hole. This is mostly gibberish, and what little I could discern from it is flat out wrong. Bzzzt, try again. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1369 "2018-04-25T16:33:33Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > This is mostly gibberish, and what little I could discern from it is flat out wrong. Bzzzt, try again. Sure you say that, but I see only that you are scared that a guy with grammar problems can read better than you, so the question is: do you deny that that Kenneth Shores (the researcher you quoted) came a few months later with research that showed that you are relying on incomplete information to declare your dumb victory? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1370 "2018-04-25T16:34:56Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > This is mostly gibberish, and what little I could discern from it is flat out wrong. Bzzzt, try again. I take it that english is not your first language? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1371 "2018-04-25T17:00:19Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Sure you say that, but I see only that you are scared that a guy with grammar problems can read better than you, so the question is: do you deny that that Kenneth Shores (the researcher you quoted) came a few months later with research that showed that you are relying on incomplete information to declare your dumb victory? I can’t “deny” an assertion like that, because I don’t have a transcript handy of everything Shores has ever said. I can however confirm that there has been as of today no correction or note added to the Brookings paper, as you can see here: > **[Do school districts spend less money on poor and minority students? | Brookings](https://www.brookings.edu/articles/do-school-districts-spend-less-money-on-poor-and-minority-students/)** > > The U.S. public school system is characterized by large funding differences across districts, but what about differences in school spending within districts? Generally, districts have discretion with respect to how they allocate resources to specific... > [@k9bfriender](#): > > I take it that english is not your first language? I think you meant to address that to GIGO, and s/he has already confirmed that s/he is ESL. English is definitely my first language—it would be quite a trick to get a perfect 36 on both the English and Reading sections of the ACT if it were not. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1372 "2018-04-25T17:15:21Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > To sum up: Political correctness is responsible for anything bad. White men are being demonized and the proof is that NPR hosts talked about a story and focused on something other than what **SlackerInc** thought they should. Disagreeing with **SlackerInc** is being a “dirty gaslighter”. And white supremacism is just fine as long as it’s similar to the paternal attitude of colonialists. > > Did I leave anything out? Forgot about the test score bragging! Repeated trumpeting of one’s test scores, as if this meant anything more (and was any more likely to be grounded in fact) than a random homeless person spouting about their political or celebrity connections. Thanks for reminding me, **Slacker**. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1373 "2018-04-25T17:18:14Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I can’t “deny” an assertion like that, because I don’t have a transcript handy of everything Shores has ever said. I can however confirm that there has been as of today no correction or note added to the Brookings paper, as you can see here: > > [Do school districts spend less money on poor and minority students? | Brookings](https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brown-center-chalkboard/2017/05/25/do-school-districts-spend-less-money-on-poor-and-minority-students/) Do you know that the argument that one can ignore new research (from the one you cited) does not work for climate change deniers or creationists too? It is also clear that you \*\*totally \*\*missed that the cite I made about how many districts are underfunded came also from Shores. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > I think you meant to address that to GIGO, and s/he has already confirmed that s/he is ESL. English is definitely my first language—it would be quite a trick to get a perfect 36 on both the English and Reading sections of the ACT if it were not. 😛 Ok, thanks for clarifying that you are then an incompetent at reading cites and research. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1374 "2018-04-25T17:23:32Z")
GIGO, if you have evidence that supersedes the still-extant Brookings paper, link to it or get off the pot. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Forgot about the test score bragging! Repeated trumpeting of one’s test scores, as if this meant anything more (and was any more likely to be grounded in fact) than a random homeless person spouting about their political or celebrity connections. > > Thanks for reminding me, **Slacker**. I posted video of myself holding the official score report. See upthread if you missed it. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1375 "2018-04-25T17:39:03Z")
Yes! _That’s_ the way to go! You are \*totally \*coming across as the smartest and most well-adjusted person! Keep it up, you hero! “ **Slack** am hyoomon best! Have vids to prove it!” ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1376 "2018-04-25T17:51:31Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I think you meant to address that to GIGO, and s/he has already confirmed that s/he is ESL. English is definitely my first language—it would be quite a trick to get a perfect 36 on both the English and Reading sections of the ACT if it were not. 😛 No, I was addressing you. Sometimes GIGO phrases things a bit oddly, but I have never had any difficulty in understanding. The post you responded to, claiming to be gibberish was pretty close to perfect english. I can see that it would be improved by the inclusion of a preposition and a comma, but it is perfectly intelligible. Someone as well versed in english as you claim to be should be able to parse across minor errors with ease, instead, you are unable to comprehend it at all. That’s why I was wondering if english was your first language. Minor errors are harder for someone to parse if they have a poor grasp of the language. If your language skills are as you say they are, then your assertion that you could not comprehend GIGO’s words is simply a lie in order to avoid dealing with what they are saying. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > I posted video of myself holding the official score report. See upthread if you missed it. Your parents must be so proud. I remember in preschool, when I got a gold star on my test, my parents would take a picture of me holding it. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1377 "2018-04-25T17:57:31Z")
If standardized tests were based around parsing pidgin English, or even the kind of writing you see in an average schmoe’s Facebook update, I would do very poorly. I’m happy to read the kind of prose you find in The Atlantic or The New Yorker, but even some of the content in the local newspaper starts to give me a headache and I give up on it. Perhaps that is indeed a limitation of mine. So be it. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1378 "2018-04-25T17:58:07Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So if the graduates of a given high school read on a fourth grade level and do math at a third grade level, it is a radical proposition to say that this is at least as important as parent satisfaction? And it’s “chutzpah” to tell them that people who don’t have basic high-school level skills are at a disadvantage when they go to find jobs and/or otherwise function in adult society? > > Not sure I agree 100% with your detective work there, Lou. > > Do you think we need to do anything about the black-white gap in education? Or, as long as the parents are happy with their schools, nothing need be done? > > Regards, > Shodan How do people get into 8th grade with 3rd grade math and 4th grade reading skills? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1379 "2018-04-25T18:01:44Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > GIGO, if you have evidence that supersedes the still-extant Brookings paper, link to it or get off the pot. The word you are looking for is **expands** (to give a fuller version or account of.). Used already, look for it, it is not hard. Ok, not making the mistake to assume that you are able, so I also have to tell you that the Kenneth Shores’ most recent research that reported that 29 to 44 percent of districts under-allocate resources to disadvantaged students was already cited on post #1349 [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20922455&postcount=1349](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20922455&postcount=1349) So, what happens when you are the one that chronically misses links? Will \*\*you \*\*get off the pot? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1380 "2018-04-25T18:16:01Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > No, I was addressing you. Sometimes GIGO phrases things a bit oddly, but I have never had any difficulty in understanding. The post you responded to, claiming to be gibberish was pretty close to perfect english. I can see that it would be improved by the inclusion of a preposition and a comma, but it is perfectly intelligible. > > Someone as well versed in english as you claim to be should be able to parse across minor errors with ease, instead, you are unable to comprehend it at all. That’s why I was wondering if english was your first language. Minor errors are harder for someone to parse if they have a poor grasp of the language. > > If your language skills are as you say they are, then your assertion that you could not comprehend GIGO’s words is simply a lie in order to avoid dealing with what they are saying. Thank you **k9bfriender** , that made my day. And I do agree, Slacker is not only lying but also being a coward for avoiding questions with that ruse. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=68) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=70)