# Interesting podcast conversation between Sam Harris and Charles Murray (of "Bell Curve" fame) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 23, 2017, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052 "2017-04-23T09:21:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/121 "2017-04-24T19:06:46Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > We can call it populations instead of races or whatever; you are getting very bogged down in the concept of races. You can look at clusters of genetic populations (as identified by PCA), self-identified “race”, whatever. There is an IQ gap between the groups whichever of these approaches you take. There’s a difference in IQ scores between those who live in rural and urban areas. How come no one preaches genetic difference in intelligence based on “geographic groups”. These racial theories are directly based on erroneous beliefs on racial genetics. Human variation has not borne out grouping people into Black/White/etc races. Also renaming ‘race’ into ‘population’ is an idiots way to avoid address that core illegitimacy of race theory. But don’t worry, Harris and Murray make this stupid mistake at the 57:00 mark. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/122 "2017-04-24T19:08:27Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > A link to rationalwiki, one of the most biased sources on the internet? Yes, for the simple reason that I did check what do they cite. Deal with it just as the OP told us to do it by us doing the work. So as the OP said “Do that, and I’ll make you a promise that I’ll engage you on any and every point you ask me to. Don’t do it, and I’ll pick and choose. Your call.”… Actually that was said just to show that you also have to look at who you are trying to support in this “discussion”, but clearly you are just doing the kill the messenger fallacy. In any case, I did cite the reasons why most researchers do not think that Murray should be given much attention. ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/123 "2017-04-24T19:12:57Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > There’s a difference in IQ scores between those who live in rural and urban areas. How come no one preaches genetic difference in intelligence based on “geographic groups”. These racial theories are directly based on erroneous beliefs on racial genetics. Human variation has not borne out grouping people into Black/White/etc races. > > Also renaming ‘race’ into ‘population’ is an idiots way to avoid address that core illegitimacy of race theory. But don’t worry, Harris and Murray make this stupid mistake at the 57:00 mark. I’m pretty sure that Murray talks about the rural-urban divide too in Coming Apart. I haven’t read it though. There are clearly population groups of humans that differ significantly genetically. You can google PCA Europe or something to see an illustration. This is not a social construct. I can see the argument that race is, though. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/124 "2017-04-24T19:13:36Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Call me skeptical as to whether you really listened carefully to the whole thing. He absolutely pressed Murray on the question of whether the subject \*should \*be studied at all, and pointed out that the people who cheerlead loudest for this kind of science are mostly the scum of the earth. “Should we study this ‘Forbidden Knowledge’ that’s, like, totally true.” isn’t a serious skeptical question. How about questioning its basic validity. God knows race theory has libraries of detractors (not that any of Harris’ audience would know as he repeatedly, and repeatedly stated the counterfactual to that point). > [@](#): > > That said, I appreciate that you at least attempted to listen, which is a lot more than most of the peanut gallery can say. Oh thanks, idiot. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/125 "2017-04-24T19:15:25Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > There’s a difference in IQ scores between those who live in rural and urban areas. Murray talked about this very thing! I get the sense that he sees rural working class whites as sorting themselves into their own taxonomic subgroup, as the more intellectually talented among them have over the past few decades removed themselves from those areas and their gene pools and sorted themselves into high-IQ kinship groups in places like NYC and especially Silicon Valley. The kinds of places Judis and Teixeira called [“ideopolis counties”](http://www.newsweek.com/politics-and-ideopolis-144581) in their 2002 book _The Emerging Democratic Majority_. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/126 "2017-04-24T19:15:54Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > And you didn’t listen to the podcast episode I want to discuss. Do that, and I’ll make you a promise that I’ll engage you on any and every point you ask me to. Don’t do it, and I’ll pick and choose. Your call. I’ve listened to 40 minutes so far. If I can, I’ll get to the rest later. I’m very disappointed in Harris’s tonguebath – no real critical questions at all like the ones I suggested in post #47. A lot of obsequiousness and praise for crap science (IMO, anyway). So far, at least. Maybe in the rest he suddenly changes tactics and starts actually challenging Murray (on the crap science – not on “whether we should study it”). Care to respond to my post #59, or at least 40 minutes worth? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/127 "2017-04-24T19:19:47Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > [QUOTE=mr. jp] > > A link to rationalwiki, one of the most biased sources on the internet? > > From the perspective of a scientist who thinks Murray is mostly right, and that his opinions are quite mainstream within the field, this thread is quite disappointing for my view of this forum. One thing is honest disagreement of course, but that’s not even what we have here, it’s arrogant dismissal. I’m afraid The Straight Dope forums is not the place to find truth in any vaguely PC-related matters. I have the sense that this is far more true now than it was five or ten years ago. ☹ [/quote] :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Spare us your tales of “woe is me” from both of you! \*\*SlackerInc \*\*is getting \*\*deserved \*\*flak not only for telling others to produce the subjects to a discussion to the PIT (even here, it is \*\*your \*\*job), but also for thinking that we should ignore history. And you also are acting very disingenuously for not realizing that we are indeed in the pit. ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/128 "2017-04-24T19:23:14Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > :rolleyes: :rolleyes: > > Spare us your tales of “woe is me” from both of you! > > \*\*SlackerInc \*\*is getting \*\*deserved \*\*flak not only for telling others to bring the subjects to a discussion to the PIT, but also for thinking that we should ignore history. And you also are acting very disingenuously for not realizing that we are indeed in the pit. Woe is the truth; not me. But fair point about this being the pit. Perhaps it should’ve been in GD. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/129 "2017-04-24T19:24:30Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > :rolleyes: :rolleyes: > > Spare us your tales of “woe is me” from both of you! > > \*\*SlackerInc \*\*is getting \*\*deserved \*\*flak not only for telling others to produce the subjects to a discussion to the PIT (even here, it is \*\*your \*\*job), but also for thinking that we should ignore history. And you also are acting very disingenuously for not realizing that we are indeed in the pit. I brought it to the Pit because I don’t trust that it can be discussed elsewhere without risk of running into some kind of moderation against “hate speech”. As for “thinking that we should ignore history”, what the hell is that about? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/130 "2017-04-24T19:26:01Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I brought it to the Pit because I don’t trust that it can be discussed elsewhere without risk of running into some kind of moderation against “hate speech”. As for “thinking that we should ignore history”, what the hell is that about? You need to read post #100 to see the history of where many are coming from regarding Murray. And you are then a very naive dunderhead if you still think that the pit was not going to get you flak. You need to deal with it too or you will get shot down. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/131 "2017-04-24T19:28:14Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > I don’t really wan’t to identify myself too much, but human genetics. OK, so when you’re speaking as “a scientist” you’re not actually speaking as a scientist with respect to IQ tests, or intelligence, or distribution of intelligence, but only wrt genetics? So for instance, you would only be speaking authoritatively to the question of “are black people a race”? (I assume the answer is “no”) ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/132 "2017-04-24T19:31:15Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > OK, so when you’re speaking as “a scientist” you’re not actually speaking as a scientist with respect to IQ tests, or intelligence, or distribution of intelligence, but only wrt genetics? So for instance, you would only be speaking authoritatively to the question of “are black people a race”? (I assume the answer is “no”) I will not be speaking with particular authority in either of those questions. I have knowledge about genetics, but I think the question of races as a concept is more a question of language and history. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/133 "2017-04-24T19:34:25Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > I will not be speaking with particular authority in either of those questions. I have knowledge about genetics, but I think the question of races as a concept is more a question of language and history. OK, then I don’t understand the following comment: > [@mr.jp](#): > > From the perspective of a scientist who thinks Murray is mostly right, and that his opinions are quite mainstream within the field So you meant ‘the perspective of a scientist who has no particular expertise in the issues you’re commenting about?’ Why mention it? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/134 "2017-04-24T19:36:15Z")
To the person complaining that most people here probably haven’t read The Bell Curve: I bet most people here have never read a single paper or book by Peter Duesburg, and yet every last one of us would be entirely justified in slagging that idiot off. ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/135 "2017-04-24T19:37:49Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > OK, then I don’t understand the following comment: > > So you meant ‘the perspective of a scientist who has no particular expertise in the issues you’re commenting about?’ Why mention it? I think that being in the scientific world, having a lot of experience with statistical analyses, having familiarity with differences between populations etc, gives me a different perspective in reading Murray than probably most of the population. It’s not hugely important, I agree. Ofc even if I were an “IQ scientist” or whatever, I could be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/136 "2017-04-24T19:42:29Z")
I’m also quite familiar with the research in the area, and although there are still differences of opinion, Murray is definitely within the mainstream in his claims. The reception he has gotten from the non-scientific public is in my opinion totally out of proportion. To me it seems sort of similar to the public reaction to GMOs which the public absolutely hates, even though the scientific mainstream doesn’t consider it particularly risky. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/137 "2017-04-24T19:47:39Z")
What’s so convincing about Murray’s position? We know zilch about what genes and genesets are actually responsible for high and low intelligence in healthy humans (we might know a little about some genetic conditions with symptoms that include low intelligence), much less their prevalence in various populations. There is [specific experimental evidence](https://www.scribd.com/document/3616665/Sandra-Scarr-Andrew-J-Pakstis-Solomon-H-Katz-and-William-B-Barker-Absence-of-a-relationship-between-degree-of-white-ancestry-and-intellectual-s), with techniques looking at genetic ancestry (albeit using an older technique) that directly refutes his conclusion. An old study, to be sure, but there aren’t any more recent that refute its findings. We know for a fact that IQ test scores [change over time within the same population](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect). That means that IQ test scores for African Americans now are roughly the same, on average, as the IQ test scores for white Americans in certain past decades. And the two groups in the US that generally perform most poorly on average in various statistical outcomes (black Americans and Native Americans) are also the two groups that have – _ **by far** _ – been treated the worst in American history. Is that really just a coincidence? With all this in mind, it seems totally ludicrous to conclude that genes are the final explanation for test score gaps in the US. Perhaps it’s a reasonable hypothesis to start from, but that’s all – how could we possibly conclude this hypothesis is true when we know so little about what genes are actually responsible for high and low intelligence? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/138 "2017-04-24T19:50:28Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > I’m also quite familiar with the research in the area, and although there are still differences of opinion, Murray is definitely within the mainstream in his claims. The reception he has gotten from the non-scientific public is in my opinion totally out of proportion. To me it seems sort of similar to the public reaction to GMOs which the public absolutely hates, even though the scientific mainstream doesn’t consider it particularly risky. When you say “within the mainstream” do you mean his claim that there are IQ differences between certain groups, or his claims that those differences are due to genetic characteristics of those groups? ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/139 "2017-04-24T19:52:19Z")
[QUOTE=Budget Player Cadet] To the person complaining that most people here probably haven’t read The Bell Curve: I bet most people here have never read a single paper or book by Peter Duesburg, and yet every last one of us would be entirely justified in slagging that idiot off. [/QUOTE] I haven’t seen _Twilight_, either. (I actually think I did read The Bell Curve, along with the Moynihan report, in grad school. There’s a reason they’ve been relegated to the dustbin of history.) ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/140 "2017-04-24T19:52:41Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I may not have the dates right, but there is no lie in the overall thrust of what I said. If you are now claiming you never changed your mind about who was going to win, it is either you who is the liar or you have some kind of serious memory problem. Nope, you’re the liar here, troll. In fact, I remember now that you’ve long been both. I had forgotten you since you removed yourself from the Elections forum (your job there having been successfully completed, I assume). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=8)