# Interesting podcast conversation between Sam Harris and Charles Murray (of "Bell Curve" fame) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 23, 2017, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052 "2017-04-23T09:21:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 76
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1501 "2018-05-10T02:18:05Z")
Sam invited a harsh critic on, and published the result even though it was unlistenable: search for the “best podcast ever” or maybe “greatest”. And of course he takes heat on appearances at places like “Real Time”, as the infamous clip with Ben Affleck illustrates. But I will stand up for almost anything Sam represents, whoever wants to come at me. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1502 "2018-05-10T02:25:37Z")
> [@](#): > > I get the appeal of the I.D.W. I share the belief that our institutional gatekeepers need to crack the gates open much more. I don’t, however, want to live in a culture where there are no gatekeepers at all. Given how influential this group is becoming, I can’t be alone in hoping the I.D.W. finds a way to eschew the cranks, grifters and bigots and sticks to the truth-seeking. Too bad that they can’t avoid the bigots… ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1503 "2018-05-10T02:30:59Z")
Let’s not miss the point Slacker. The point is that a lot of conservatives whine about not having a platform (demonstrably horseshit) and claim they only want the free flow of ideas. But they prefer to debate imaginary opponents rather than real ones. Googling, the great podcast was with Omar Aziz. Considerable negotiation preceded the making of that podcast. Harris demanded that Aziz read his 2,800 word essay out loud, with Harris getting to stop him at the parts he found objectionable. That’s a weird way to structure a conversation. Harris insisted though, and Aziz eventually relented. [My secret debate with Sam Harris: A revealing 4-hour dialogue on Islam, racism & free-speech hypocrisy | Salon.com](https://www.salon.com/2016/03/07/my_secret_debate_with_sam_harris_a_revealing_4_hour_dialogue_on_islam_racism_free_speech_hypocrisy/) Harris called Aziz back to say -surprise surprise- the interview was boring and would not be broadcast. Aziz then published the Salon piece. The podcast came out shortly afterwards. This doesn’t exactly look like a profile in courage to me. ETA: I called Harris an asshole upthread. That was unfair, as I really don’t know enough about the guy to judge his character. “Acted like an asshole” would be better. ---
**Author:** ![Covfefe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ee7513/32.png) [@Covfefe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covfefe)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1504 "2018-05-10T03:11:58Z")
The worst thing about Sam Harris is he has essentially chosen to be a friend of a friend to the likes of InfoWars. He has chosen to needlessly situate himself 2 degrees of separation away from some truly reprehensible people. Rubin, the former TYT correspondent discussed in the article, is backed by the Koch brothers and takes the “the left is silencing everyone” propaganda so far as to portray Alex Jones as a centrist. A key to Rubin’s grift is pretending almost all leftists are too intolerant to come on his talk show. Recently Rubin had a lovely chat with Seb Gorka. To my understanding Harris fails time and time again to criticize folks like Rubin, with whom he shares some common foes, when conspicuous opportunities arrive. Harris treats some of the enemies of his enemies as allies, only taking it to a less extreme degree than those who have supported Trump for that reason. I wasn’t aware until 2.5 years ago of Harris having any noteworthy weaknesses or flaws. That changed when I heard this excerpt that rubbed me the wrong way of him yukking it up with _Douglas_ Murray. [Douglas Murray rant about Transgenders makes Sam Harris laugh - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQ4zUjMUtXQ) ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1505 "2018-05-10T05:27:19Z")
> [@Covfefe](#): > > The worst thing about Sam Harris is he has essentially chosen to be a friend of a friend to the likes of InfoWars. Well it’s not just friend of a friend; it’s uncritically supporting many of the things they say, and painting them solely as victims. And Harris himself sometimes crosses the line, but here’s the thing: more often than that he makes valid but uncomfortable points. So if you try to suggest Harris sometimes engages in bigotry himself, many people will assume that you mean one of those kinds of statements, and you’re being a “snowflake”. He’s a perfect pawn for the alt right crowd in that sense, dancing along the line, just a short step from Shapiro. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1506 "2018-05-10T05:28:22Z")
> [@Covfefe](#): > > The worst thing about Sam Harris is he has essentially chosen to be a friend of a friend to the likes of InfoWars. He has chosen to needlessly situate himself 2 degrees of separation away from some truly reprehensible people. Rubin, the former TYT correspondent discussed in the article, is backed by the Koch brothers and takes the “the left is silencing everyone” propaganda so far as to portray Alex Jones as a centrist. A key to Rubin’s grift is pretending almost all leftists are too intolerant to come on his talk show. Recently Rubin had a lovely chat with Seb Gorka. To my understanding Harris fails time and time again to criticize folks like Rubin, with whom he shares some common foes, when conspicuous opportunities arrive. Harris treats some of the enemies of his enemies as allies, only taking it to a less extreme degree than those who have supported Trump for that reason. > > I wasn’t aware until 2.5 years ago of Harris having any noteworthy weaknesses or flaws. That changed when I heard this excerpt that rubbed me the wrong way of him yukking it up with _Douglas_ Murray. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQ4zUjMUtXQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQ4zUjMUtXQ) Very interesting. You zeroed in on two of the major sticking points that required me to precede “anything Sam stands for” with the qualifier “almost”. In particular, I found Douglas Murray to be a sleazebag, and wished Sam would not be so friendly to him. You’re also right about Rubin to a lesser degree. At least in that case, he did dedicate much of an AMA podcast episode to that controversy. Did you hear that? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1507 "2018-05-10T05:48:02Z")
Full disclosure: after posting the above, I listened to the YouTube clip. TBH, if that were all I had heard from the conversation, I would not have such a problem with Douglas Murray. It was some more racist-sounding language that I found very discomfiting. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1508 "2018-05-10T06:17:13Z")
I have now had a chance to read the NYT piece. Great read, well worth 20% of my monthly NYT ration. > [@](#): > > There are fundamental biological differences between men and women. Free speech is under siege. Identity politics is a toxic ideology that is tearing American society apart. And we’re in a dangerous place if these ideas are considered “dark.” Agree wholeheartedly. > [@](#): > > Mr. Weinstein, who can’t name two of Mr. West’s songs, Ha, this is totally me. I said this on another forum (I knew he had an album called “Yeezus”, so I figured there might be an eponymous track), and people actually accused me of lying! Fact is, before the recent Trump stuff, I knew “George Bush doesn’t care about black people”, “I’ma let you finish”, and “Yeezus” supposedly being a masterpiece according to many culture critics. That’s it. > [@](#): > > When she wrote an op-ed in 2015 titled “Why Transgender Kids Should Wait to Transition,” citing research that found that a majority of gender dysphoric children outgrow their dysphoria, she said her colleagues warned her, “Even if you stay in academia and express this view, tenure won’t protect you.” This exact thing happened to my older daughter’s stepsister. I predicted that outcome, and sure enough I was right. But boy oh boy, was my daughter angry with me about it! I have yet to find myself impressed by Jordan Peterson, however. Nice quote from Sam: > [@](#): > > “There are a few people in this network who have gone without saying anything critical about Trump, a person who has assaulted truth more than anyone in human history,” Mr. Harris said. “If you care about the truth, that is quite strange.” See, he’s calling people out, even if not by name. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1509 "2018-05-10T06:48:59Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Sam invited a harsh critic on, and published the result even though it was unlistenable: search for the “best podcast ever” or maybe “greatest”. And of course he takes heat on appearances at places like “Real Time”, as the infamous clip with Ben Affleck illustrates. > > But I will stand up for almost anything Sam represents, whoever wants to come at me. At least you admit to being a _true believer_, just don’t try to sell your blind faith as science. It is little more than _genetic astrology_ at best. But kudos on finally admitting that faith and loyalty and not facts are your trumpet call. > [@](#): > > “The opposite of the religious fanatic is not the fanatical atheist but the gentle cynic who cares not whether there is a God or not. The atheist is a religious person. He believes in atheism as though it were a new religion.” > ― Eric Hoffer, The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1510 "2018-05-10T06:52:32Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > At least you admit to being a _true believer_, just don’t try to sell your blind faith as science. > > It is little more than _genetic astrology_ at best. > > But kudos on finally admitting that faith and loyalty and not facts are your trumpet call. I take it you didn’t read post #1506 before dashing this off? :dubious: ETA: I also think Sam’s philosophy about “the greatest possible agony for every sentient being” has some clear logic holes, and I’m not convinced that there is no such thing as a self. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1511 "2018-05-10T06:58:20Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I have now had a chance to read the NYT piece. What percentage of it do you think you understood? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1512 "2018-05-10T07:04:22Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I take it you didn’t read post #1506 before dashing this off? :dubious: I read it but the fact that you have your limits to your adherence to a cult of personality does not temper the fact that you are still a _true believer_. It is still likely that you would drink the kool-aid if a few fellow believers were set up to run and get shot like at Jonestown. You have stated your loyalty to the person, to the cult and not ideas or the facts. > [@](#): > > Science adjusts it’s views based on what’s observed. > Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved > > - Tim Minchin ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1513 "2018-05-10T08:09:26Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > I > You have stated your loyalty to the person, to the cult and not ideas or the facts. I have of course done nothing of the sort. Cool palindrome SN though. I wonder if in any language, the word for “palindrome” is itself a palindrome? Seems like it should be. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1514 "2018-05-10T08:20:52Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I have of course done nothing of the sort. > > Cool palindrome SN though. I wonder if in any language, the word for “palindrome” is itself a palindrome? Seems like it should be. Really, define what a white person is in a meaningful biological way then? I know you hope to “win” though attrition, but it is not a victory if you can’t defend your premise by defining it. You are defending dogma, not facts. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1515 "2018-05-10T09:00:04Z")
[https://news.stanford.edu/news/2005/february9/med-race-02-09-05.html](https://news.stanford.edu/news/2005/february9/med-race-02-09-05.html) > [@](#): > > Checking a box next to a racial/ethnic category gives several pieces of information about people—the continent where their ancestors were born, the possible color of their skin and perhaps something about their risk of different diseases. But a new study by medical school researchers finds that the checked box also says something about a person’s genetic background. > > This work comes on the heels of several contradictory studies about the genetic basis of race. Some found that race is a social construct with no genetic basis while others suggested that clear genetic differences exist between people of different races. > > What makes the current study, published in the February issue of the American Journal of Human Genetics, more conclusive is its size. The study is by far the largest, consisting of 3,636 people who all identified themselves as either white, African-American, East Asian or Hispanic. Of these, only five individuals had DNA that matched an ethnic group different than the box they checked at the beginning of the study. That’s an error rate of 0.14 percent. I have mild curiosity about what sort of goalpost-shifting or “No True Scotsman” argument rat avatar will advance in response to this cite. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1516 "2018-05-10T14:59:55Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > [https://news.stanford.edu/news/2005/february9/med-race-02-09-05.html](https://news.stanford.edu/news/2005/february9/med-race-02-09-05.html) > I have mild curiosity about what sort of goalpost-shifting or “No True Scotsman” argument rat avatar will advance in response to this cite. Well at least this shows that you are not capable of learning that there were studies that countered that. Heck, even the cite you make does mention that they exist. Furthermore, one has to notice that you are once again attempting to ignore that the issue is about denouncing the use of genetics as the main factor on driving the differences in intelligence among the “races”. > **[Opinion | How Genetics Is Changing Our Understanding of ‘Race’ (Published 2018)](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/23/opinion/sunday/genetics-race.html)** > > If scientists avoid discussing the topic candidly, racist theories will fill the vacuum. > [@](#): > > modern research is challenging our thinking about the nature of human population differences. But he goes on to make the unfounded and irresponsible claim that this research is suggesting that genetic factors explain traditional stereotypes. > > One of Mr. Wade’s key sources, for example, is the anthropologist Henry Harpending, who has asserted that people of sub-Saharan African ancestry have no propensity to work when they don’t have to because, he claims, they did not go through the type of natural selection for hard work in the last thousands of years that some Eurasians did. There is simply no scientific evidence to support this statement. Indeed, as 139 geneticists (including myself) pointed out in a letter to The New York Times about Mr. Wade’s book, there is no genetic evidence to back up any of the racist stereotypes he promotes. One has to point out again that, even when some genes are taken into account, guys like Murray and others do remain racists in the eyes of researchers like Reich; who continues to point out that “there is no genetic evidence to back up any of the racist stereotypes” that guys like Murray promotes; and guys like Sam still believe that they deserve to be heard when he is himself showing to be a willful ignoramus about the bullhorn that conservative outfits already give to racists like Murray and others. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1517 "2018-05-10T15:25:45Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > [https://news.stanford.edu/news/2005/february9/med-race-02-09-05.html](https://news.stanford.edu/news/2005/february9/med-race-02-09-05.html) > I have mild curiosity about what sort of goalpost-shifting or “No True Scotsman” argument rat avatar will advance in response to this cite. There has been no goalpost shifting for pages, but are you claiming this 2005 study is representative of your enumeration of _“races”_? “either white, African-American, East Asian or Hispanic” That leaves a lot of options undocumented, and can you clarify about _Hispanic_? As this study claims to use the Census definitions, where > [@](#): > > Hispanic: > “a person of Cuban, Mexican, Puerto Rican, South or Central American, or other Spanish culture or origin regardless of race” In your gospel is India “white” or “asian”? Because from the 2000 census it stated that “Asian” was \*“Far East, Southeast Asia, or the Indian subcontinent” \* Note how your fringe prophet Risch ignored that fact and thus ended up begging the question? Because including Southeast Asia, or the Indian subcontinent populations would have changed the numbers significantly. But it is far more convenient to ignore the racial groupings that wouldn’t fit the claim. I doubt you will, just as I doubt that you will ever gain the courage to actually define what “white” is in your mind. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1518 "2018-05-10T17:42:23Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > There has been no goalpost shifting for pages, but are you claiming this 2005 study is representative of your enumeration of _“races”_? > > “either white, African-American, East Asian or Hispanic” That made me laugh out loud. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1519 "2018-05-10T18:20:45Z")
Matthew Yglassias: “I’m just asking for a civil discussion that’s not dominated by taboos and censorship but also where nobody is allowed to call me racist no matter what I say or do.” [https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/994567535629611010](https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/994567535629611010) and I’ll add for the heck of it: “There are significant tactical benefits to being the party of old people (much higher turnout) and white people (much more favorable electoral geography) so we have a fiercely contested politics but there’s little sign “dark web” YouTubes are winning the argument.” [https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/994547027337007106](https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/994547027337007106) Continuing this tangent, here’s Brad DeLong: [INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT] Note to Self: This is your reminder: ``` 180.8 million people are represented by the 49 senators who caucus with the Democrats. 141.7 million people are represented by the 51 senators who caucus with the Republicans. 65.9 million people voted for Hillary Rodham Clinton and Tim Kaine to be their president and vice president 63.0 million people voted for Donald Trump and Mike Pence to be their president and vice president. [/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT] http://www.bradford-delong.com/2018/05/note-to-self-this-is-your-reminder-1784-million-people-are-represented-by-the-48-senators-who-caucus-with-the-democ.html ``` ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1520 "2018-05-10T19:29:53Z")
“Studies that countered that”. So the Stanford researchers made 3,631 lucky guesses and only five unlucky ones? :dubious: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=75) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=77)