# Interesting podcast conversation between Sam Harris and Charles Murray (of "Bell Curve" fame) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 23, 2017, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052 "2017-04-23T09:21:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 79
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2018, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1561 "2018-05-15T21:50:50Z")
I want to point out that once again you have ducked the question as to what makes someone “white”. If you are so sure of your claim why are you unwilling to define the terms your claim depends on? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2018, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1562 "2018-05-15T21:54:25Z")
Thanks for the link. It’s right there in the abstract! > [@](#): > > Genetic cluster analysis of the microsatellite markers produced four major clusters, which showed near-perfect correspondence with the four self-reported race/ethnicity categories. Of 3,636 subjects of varying race/ethnicity, only 5 (0.14%) showed genetic cluster membership different from their self-identified race/ethnicity. On the other hand, we detected only modest genetic differentiation between different current geographic locales within each race/ethnicity group. Thus, ancient geographic ancestry, which is highly correlated with self-identified race/ethnicity—as opposed to current residence—is the major determinant of genetic structure in the U.S. population. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2018, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1563 "2018-05-15T21:58:42Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Thanks for the link. It’s right there in the abstract! You need to improve your reading comprehension BTW, this doesn’t show that there is a genetic basis for race, but that a very limited and controlled selection of self selected categories is semi reliable for placing the **continent** someone’s ancestry was from. But only when you reduce that set down to the absolute extremes and ignore the more complicated options. Note that you ignored the rest of my post… This is a PERFECT example of confirmation bias. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2018, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1564 "2018-05-15T22:07:50Z")
It is, but not in the way you mean. I’m done humoring your reverse Gish Gallup. I’ll occasionally go back and cite that abstract, as needed, if it’s been a while. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2018, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1565 "2018-05-15T22:16:53Z")
I happened across an interesting 2007 Slate series from William Saletan titled “Created Equal”. Google still acts like it’s on Slate’s site, but at some point they took it down. I suppose I could use [archive.org](http://archive.org) to track down when exactly that happened, but instead I just went to an early hit to get a copy, which follows (I think it’s fair use to quote something in it entirety when it has been censored): > [@](#): > > Article Removed To be continued… ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2018, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1566 "2018-05-15T22:19:31Z")
Part III: > [@](#): > > Article Removed ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2018, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1567 "2018-05-15T22:19:32Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > It is, but not in the way you mean. > > I’m done humoring your reverse Gish Gallup. I’ll occasionally go back and cite that abstract, as needed, if it’s been a while. No you are ignoring the problems with your argument, and you still don’t have the guts to define what “white” is. Here is one that you should go back to, the study that started this entire podcast and thread. > **[Categorization of humans in biomedical research: genes, race and disease](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC139378/)** > > A debate has arisen regarding the validity of racial/ethnic categories for biomedical and genetic research. An epidemiologic perspective on the issue of human categorization in biomedical and genetic research strongly supports the continued use of... > [@](#): > > What is not scientific is a value system attached to any such findings. Great abuse has occurred in the past with notions of ‘genetic superiority’ of one particular group over another. The notion of superiority is not scientific, only political, and can only be used for political purposes. Craniometry, IQ tests, School funding etc… is what he was talking about there. You are hand waving my responses because your entire argument is a house of cards. But the only person who doesn’t realize that it has already fallen is you. If you want to have any amount of credibility, why not just define what a _white person_ is? I am betting you refuse to do so because your half-bake claims would fall the second that you do. And you are misguided in believing that your argument still stands, even if that is only in your mind. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2018, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1568 "2018-05-15T22:25:53Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Part III: > **[Regrets](https://slate.com/technology/2007/11/created-equal-regrets.html)** > > Last week, I wrote about the possibility of genetic IQ differences among races. I wanted to discuss whether egalitarianism could survive if this... > [@](#): > > I don’t want this role. I’m not an expert. I think it’s misleading to dismiss the scenario, as some officials have done in response to Watson. But my attempts to characterize the evidence beyond that, even with caveats such as “partial,” “preliminary,” and “prima facie,” have backfired. I outlined the evidence primarily to illustrate the limits of the genetic hypothesis. > [@](#): > > For the past five years, J. Philippe Rushton has been president of the Pioneer Fund, an organization dedicated to “the scientific study of heredity and human differences.” During this time, the fund has awarded at least $70,000 to the New Century Foundation. To get a flavor of what New Century stands for, check out its publications on crime (“Everyone knows that blacks are dangerous”) and heresy (“Unless whites shake off the teachings of racial orthodoxy they will cease to be a distinct people”). New Century publishes a magazine called American Renaissance, which preaches segregation. Rushton routinely speaks at its conferences. > [@](#): > > I was negligent in failing to research and report this. I’m sorry. I owe you better than that. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2018, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1569 "2018-05-15T22:27:54Z")
Okay, one more time just to make it absolutely clear: a white person, in the U.S., is someone whose genetic cluster membership almost perfectly corresponds with self-identification as white. There’s your definition. The end. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2018, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1570 "2018-05-15T22:28:55Z")
Yup, Rushton is a nasty person, just as is James Watson. That doesn’t invalidate their science. And it’s pretty obvious that Saletan’s followup was mandated by his bosses, who took down the rest of the article and probably threatened to fire him. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2018, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1571 "2018-05-15T22:28:58Z")
Rushton is an incredible quack. IIRC, he and fellow quack Lynn slandered entire African countries with low average IQ test scores based on a single test of a few dozen school children _from a neighboring country_. They are very bad scientists. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2018, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1572 "2018-05-15T22:32:04Z")
Rushton is a “quack” due to circular reasoning: he is one of the only researchers willing to tackle this toxic subject, clearly because of toxic motivations. But it appears he is even more careful to make his research unimpeachable (at least the report heavily cited by Saletan), such that it was admitted into a mainstream, peer-reviewed academic journal despite their obvious reservations. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2018, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1573 "2018-05-15T22:34:23Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Rushton is a “quack” due to circular reasoning: he is one of the only researchers willing to tackle this toxic subject, clearly because of toxic motivations. But it appears he is even more careful to make his research unimpeachable (at least the report heavily cited by Saletan), such that it was admitted into a mainstream, peer-reviewed academic journal despite their obvious reservations. No, he’s not careful. He’s a crap scientist. Maybe he slipped something through a real journal, but lots of crappy scientists have managed that. He’s also done a whole bunch of crap science and been called out for it. Some examples: Graves, J. L. (2002). “What a tangled web he weaves: Race, reproductive strategies and Rushton’s life history theory”. Anthropological Theory. 2 (2): 131–154. doi:10.1177/1469962002002002627. ISSN 1463-4996. Brace, C. Loring (March 1996). “Review: Racialism and Racist Agendas”. American Anthropologist. New Series. 98 (1): 176–7. doi:10.1525/aa.1996.98.1.02a00250. JSTOR 682972. Francisco Gil-White, Resurrecting Racism, Chapter 10 Anderson, Judith L. (1991). “Rushton’s racial comparisons: An ecological critique of theory and method”. Canadian Psychology/Psychologie canadienne. 32 (1): 51–62. doi:10.1037/h0078956. ISSN 1878-7304. Douglas Wahlsten (2001) Book Review of Race, Evolution and Behavior Leslie, Charles (2002). New Horizons in Medical Anthropology. New York: Routledge. p. 17. ISBN 0-415-27793-0. Kuznar, Lawrence (1997). Reclaiming a Scientific Anthropology. Walnut Creek: AltaMira Press. p. 104. ISBN 0-7619-9114-X. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2018, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1574 "2018-05-15T22:41:56Z")
**Slacker** , you wouldn’t hesitate to call an open young-Earth Creationist who studied biology a crap scientist. Being a creationist, especially a YEC, is inherently incompatible with the science of biology. The same is true for white supremacism (of which Rushton is very obviously an adherent) and studying race and intelligence. And this is demonstrated by the extreme shoddiness of his science, which has been very widely revealed, with very few defenses. You don’t have to defend white supremacists. That’s a choice you’re making, and it’s not one you need to be making. The science is crap. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2018, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1575 "2018-05-15T22:42:16Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Yup, Rushton is a nasty person, just as is James Watson. That doesn’t invalidate their science. And it’s pretty obvious that Saletan’s followup was mandated by his bosses, who took down the rest of the article and probably threatened to fire him. You were the one that posted a link to the article that was later clarified. There are lots of issues with their “science” which only offers indirect findings anyway. Your argument still depends on their misleading and indirect findings while ignoring more direct evidence about the basis for the I.Q. gap. But here are a few rebuttals that were posted earlier that you obviously didn’t read. > **[Opinion | All Brains Are the Same Color (Published 2007)](https://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/opinion/09nisbett.html)** > > Interventions at every age from infancy to college can reduce racial gaps in I.Q., sometimes by substantial amounts in surprisingly little time. > **[None of the Above](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007/12/17/none-of-the-above)** > > What I.Q. doesn’t tell you about race. > **[A response to "Liberal Creationism."](https://slate.com/culture/2007/12/a-response-to-liberal-creationism.html)** > > In response to James Watson's remarks concerning the intelligence of blacks, Slate's William Saletan wrote a series of pieces on race, IQ, and... I would be open to DIRECT evidence, and who knows maybe we will find it some day but it doesn’t exist like you claim. All of the information I have points to a far more complicated situation that has ever been offered by the politics of bigots. These papers you cited depend on indirect evidence, because if you look hard enough and hack the data enough you can find patterns which will match your hypothesis. This is the exact reason that we have the scientific method. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2018, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1576 "2018-05-15T22:49:30Z")
Andy, that analogy doesn’t fly. Show me a young-earth creationist paper published in a legit journal in the past 50 years and then we can talk. Meanwhile, here’s the paper that “slipped through” (I laugh at this characterization, because I feel certain the APA was very keen to find any excuse not to publish, and couldn’t find any): > **[Thirty-Years-of-Research-on-Race-Differences-in-cognitive-Ability-Rushton-Jenson-2005.pdf](https://atavisionary.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Thirty-Years-of-Research-on-Race-Differences-in-cognitive-Ability-Rushton-Jenson-2005.pdf)** > > 337.85 KB ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2018, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1577 "2018-05-15T22:53:39Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Andy, that analogy doesn’t fly. Show me a young-earth creationist paper published in a legit journal in the past 50 years and then we can talk. History has very clearly demonstrated that the scientific powers that be have been far better able to resist appeals to creationism and other supernatural claims than pseudoscientific white supremacist screeds (which are not supernatural, even as they remain entirely pseudoscientific). It’s not a surprise at all that, occasionally, a white supremacist quack slips something through a process dominated by white men (especially in Rushton’s time). ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2018, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1578 "2018-05-15T23:15:19Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Andy, that analogy doesn’t fly. Show me a young-earth creationist paper published in a legit journal in the past 50 years and then we can talk. > > Meanwhile, here’s the paper that “slipped through” (I laugh at this characterization, because I feel certain the APA was very keen to find any excuse not to publish, and couldn’t find any): > > [http://atavisionary.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Thirty-Years-of-Research-on-Race-Differences-in-cognitive-Ability-Rushton-Jenson-2005.pdf](http://atavisionary.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Thirty-Years-of-Research-on-Race-Differences-in-cognitive-Ability-Rushton-Jenson-2005.pdf) How about two? I can provide more if you wish. [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022519384800983](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022519384800983) [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0022519383904162](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0022519383904162) But you ignore the fact that we had segregation not too long ago. And here is one that you will not like related to race, although it is dated. Warning PDF [African Ancestry of the White American Population](https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/1811/4532/V58N03_155.pdf) Maybe you don’t realize that papers are published to be reviewed? Not that there aren’t a lot of filters and barriers to get published but being published doesn’t imply that a study valid just because it passed one peer review barrior. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2018, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1579 "2018-05-15T23:15:42Z")
His “time”? 2005? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2018, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1580 "2018-05-15T23:25:22Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > His “time”? 2005? And earlier. The idea of trying to diversify the leadership and powers that be of various industries and institutions is relatively recent and only in its infancy even today in terms of being implemented. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=78) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=80)