# Interesting podcast conversation between Sam Harris and Charles Murray (of "Bell Curve" fame) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 23, 2017, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052 "2017-04-23T09:21:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 80
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2018, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1581 "2018-05-15T23:26:15Z")
I do wonder if those who would self identify with MENA ethnic category would have had their skulls spontaneously shrink had the bigiots succeeded in getting it added to the 2020 census. > **[No Middle Eastern Or North African Category On 2020 Census, Bureau Says](https://www.npr.org/2018/01/29/581541111/no-middle-eastern-or-north-african-category-on-2020-census-bureau-says)** > > The Census Bureau's announcement about its race and ethnicity questions disappoints advocates who for years have been pushing for a check box for people with roots in the Middle East or North Africa. Being genetics and all. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2018, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1582 "2018-05-15T23:50:36Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > History has very clearly demonstrated that the scientific powers that be have been far better able to resist appeals to creationism and other supernatural claims than pseudoscientific white supremacist screeds (which are not supernatural, even as they remain entirely pseudoscientific). It’s not a surprise at all that, occasionally, a white supremacist quack slips something through a process dominated by white men (especially in Rushton’s time). Speaking of which, it has to be noted that Murray was, before Sam gave him an even bigger megaphone, on the news more recently for writing great praise for the racist book by Nicholas Wade, who also cited the sub-par research of Jensen and Rushton. Yep, the same book that was declared by David Reich as having no evidence to support racist IQ stereotypes. “**As 139 geneticists (including myself) pointed out in a letter to The New York Times about Mr. Wade’s book, there is no genetic evidence to back up any of the racist stereotypes he promotes.**” ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1583 "2018-05-16T00:08:42Z")
In the false hope that SlackerInc will realize why the study and Murray claims don’t work I am going to quote this cite again (was cited but not by me before) [https://www.americanscientist.org/article/a-troubling-tome](https://www.americanscientist.org/article/a-troubling-tome) > [@](#): > > Wade’s claim that races really do exist is based partly on genetic sampling of geographically distant populations. These samples appear to show clustering into distinct groups by gene variants, also known as alleles. But sampling geographically distant parts of a continuum and ignoring the regions between the samples can provide apparent clustering that does not actually prove the existence of discrete groups. > [@](#): > > Biologists have long understood, based on numerous studies with animals and plants, that the primary underlying factor determining within-species genetic variation is simple geographic distance. Novel alleles emerge through mutation and spread locally, so the greater the geographic distance between genetic samples, the more different the samples will appear. This is why it is important that the 2005 study SlackerInc provided before did the same, selecting edge cases in a continuum results on false grouping. Now in the context of the actual paper that wouldn’t have had many negative implications, and in fact was suggested as an additional data point and a way to capture some missed cultural effects. But does not “prove” anything related to race outside of the tiny use case with, intentionally distant selections that were made. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1584 "2018-05-16T08:25:25Z")
The Stanford study specifically said current geographic location didn’t matter. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1585 "2018-05-16T13:44:49Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > The Stanford study specifically said current geographic location didn’t matter. And the above posts didn’t depend on it mattering. You do understand that this quote from above is about ancestry and not current location right? > [@](#): > > Wade’s claim that races really do exist is based partly on genetic sampling of geographically distant populations. These samples appear to show clustering into distinct groups by gene variants, also known as alleles. But sampling geographically distant parts of a continuum and ignoring the regions between the samples can provide apparent clustering that does not actually prove the existence of discrete groups. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1586 "2018-05-16T14:31:40Z")
I would call the quoted material ambiguous at best on that point. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1587 "2018-05-16T14:43:40Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I would call the quoted material ambiguous at best on that point. You may want to do more research on population structure inference, genetic variation, and Principal Components Analysis (PCA) because if you are familiar with those concepts (which is required to even come close to making the claims that you do) the above quote is absolutely unambiguous. A bit of work to gain more knowledge in that area will probably clear up a lot of the confusion you seem to have with my previous replies. Edited to add: To clarify and simplify _PCA_ related to population specific variations in alleles distribution on SNPs. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2018, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1588 "2018-05-17T05:25:09Z")
Here’s the latest example of that railroading I was talking about: [John Bunn, wrongfully jailed at 14 in the 1991 murder of a correction officer, cries as he’s exonerated – New York Daily News](http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/man-wrongfully-jailed-correction-officer-murder-exonerated-article-1.3991419) Super fucked up. A one day trial?!? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1589 "2018-06-01T08:24:11Z")
This NYT graphic illustrates why it is so unfair that Sam takes such heat from progressives, and falsely gets labelled as right wing. He is standing up for the liberal, post-Enlightenment world, against social groups which (while admittedly improving at roughly the same rate) continue to lag far behind the West in support for liberal values: > In particular, what they are calling “Protestant Western Europe” is what I have called “northern Europe”, and this reinforces my belief that these societies, whatever you want to call them, are the most enlightened in the world. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1590 "2018-07-31T09:30:10Z")
Another dynamite episode of the podcast that serves as a kind of sequel to the others we’ve discussed in this thread: [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqtZTMQiupg) As Sam’s guest Coleman Hughes pointed out on Quillette: > **[Black American Culture and the Racial Wealth Gap](https://quillette.com/2018/07/19/black-american-culture-and-the-racial-wealth-gap/)** > > In the public debate on racial inequality, the wealth gap is among the sharpest arrows in the progressive quiver. > [@](#): > > If wealth differences were largely explained by America’s history of favoring certain groups over others, then it would be hard to explain why Asian-Americans, who were never favored, are on track to become wealthier than whites. Mightn’t it be innate IQ superiority, dovetailing with culturally-reinforced advantages? (On the podcast, Hughes notes that some Asian-American families in New York skimp on their food budget to afford college board test prep.) I loved when Sam called out Ta-Nehisi Coates as a “race pornographer”. I had not realized there were such huge disparities between African Americans descended from American slaves and those with ancestors in the West Indies. Would any of you who blame racism for all or most of racial achievement gaps care to take a stab at explaining that one? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1591 "2018-07-31T10:16:39Z")
You know who does even better than Asian Americans, statistically? Nigerian Americans. Is it superior Nigerian genetics? Superior Nigerian culture? Or is it the (obvious) fact that self-selected immigrant groups (who immigrated under a wide variety of circumstances) and their descendants can’t be compared to those brought or moved by force – African Americans and Native Americans? The two groups at the bottom of almost every statistical indicator are also the only two American groups (African Americans and Native Americans) that don’t descend from self-selected immigrant groups. They’re also the only two groups in America that were forcefully segregated from the rest of society for most of their history in America. It’s ridiculous to suggest that these facts aren’t related. Considering the many foolish things Harris has said about the issue, I’m also not surprised to see him call TNC a “race pornographer”. ---
**Author:** ![nate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nate/32/13085_2.png) [@nate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nate)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1592 "2018-07-31T11:10:31Z")
I was on Sam’s side of this until this last podcast with the undergrad. That was just weird and served no point. It’s risky enough talking about differences in races, but at least have someone on with major credentials if you’re going to jerk-off each other. ---
**Author:** ![yendis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ed8c4c/32.png) [@yendis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yendis)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1593 "2018-07-31T12:40:07Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I had not realized there were such huge disparities between African Americans descended from American slaves and those with ancestors in the West Indies. Would any of you who blame racism for all or most of racial achievement gaps care to take a stab at explaining that one? Both of those groups are descended from exactly the same people. i.e. people kidnapped from Africa’s west coast. Any differences therefore are best explained as the result of different experiences of racism, culture etc. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1594 "2018-07-31T13:03:47Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > As Sam’s guest Coleman Hughes pointed out on Quillette: > > > [@](#): > > > > If wealth differences were largely explained by America’s history of favoring certain groups over others, then it would be hard to explain why Asian-Americans, who were never favored, are on track to become wealthier than whites. As **iiandyiiii** noted, that’s not at all hard to explain. The experiences of immigrant groups involve a lot of different social and economic factors besides the common factor of white racism. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > Mightn’t it be innate IQ superiority, dovetailing with culturally-reinforced advantages? Sure it _ **might** _. The thing is, though, that there’s no solid evidence that genetically “innate IQ superiority” on a racial level exists. There’s nothing wrong with studying that hypothetical phenomenon scientifically, but there’s a whole lot wrong with jumping to conclusions in favor of it and trying to make social policy based on a patchwork of preliminary and partial studies on it. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > I had not realized there were such huge disparities between African Americans descended from American slaves and those with ancestors in the West Indies. Would any of you who blame racism for all or most of racial achievement gaps care to take a stab at explaining that one? I personally don’t have a particular belief about the causes of racial achievement gaps. I just think that since there’s plenty of solid evidence that racism exists and causes racial achievement gaps, while there is currently no solid evidence that racial IQ differentials capable of causing racial achievement gaps exist, then obviously the thing to do, social-policy-wise, is work on eradicating racism. If you want to call that “blaming racism”, fine: I have no problem with calling out racism as a blameworthy thing. In any case, even without espousing any particular belief about the causes of racial achievement gaps, it’s pretty easy to explain disparities such as you spoke of without hypothesizing innate genetic IQ differences. As **iiandyiiii** pointed out in the case of Nigerian-Americans, people of African ancestry with different historical circumstances (enslavement heritage vs. recent immigration, etc.) can have very different social outcomes. [Sub-Saharan African immigrants in general are more educated than the average American](http://www.latimes.com/world/africa/la-fg-global-african-immigrants-explainer-20180112-story.html), although African-Americans in general (a group with more white ancestry than the recent African immigrants) tend to be less so. They are also in general [better educated and better at English than immigrants from mainland China](https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-05-16/let-in-more-africans-if-you-want-educated-immigrants). All of this should give you some insight into how silly it is to attempt to draw conclusions about innate intelligence on a racial-group level from experiences and social outcomes of different immigrant groups. There are huge numbers of confounding factors from socioeconomic/cultural/historical impacts that make the issue far more complicated. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1595 "2018-07-31T16:35:31Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I had not realized there were such huge disparities between African Americans descended from American slaves and those with ancestors in the West Indies. Would any of you who blame racism for all or most of racial achievement gaps care to take a stab at explaining that one? I’m curious if you think the difference boils down to genetics. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1596 "2018-07-31T16:44:54Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I had not realized there were such huge disparities between African Americans descended from American slaves and those with ancestors in the West Indies. Would any of you who blame racism for all or most of racial achievement gaps care to take a stab at explaining that one? This one’s easy. Every slave ship had a ship’s doctor trained in a variety of intelligence assessment tools–precursors to the IQ tests of today. Captives were given a set of puzzles, memorization tasks, and multiple-choice questions covering such topics as medieval poetry, alchemical advances, and Adam Smith’s **Wealth of Nations**. Those who scored highest on this battery of tests were sent to the West Indies, where the intellectually demanding task of cutting sugarcane required only the smartest captives. Those with lower scores were sent to the Carolinas to pick cotton and tobacco–tasks which require little intellectual capacity. Over time, this enforced separation resulted in the descendants of West Indies slaves developing into exactly the sort of super-genius ubermensch you’d expect. Some folks will tell you that you’re a goddamned idiot who can’t see how immigrants self-select for the most motivated and willing-to-sacrifice-for-long-term-goals members of a group. They’ll tell you that there’s no evidence of IQ tests on slave ships. Don’t believe them. When you accept the self-evident nature of scientific racism, it’s clear that those shipboard psychologists must have been a thing. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1597 "2018-07-31T17:02:02Z")
Note also that unlike African Americans, most of the Asian americans are [first of second generation immigrants](http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/09/08/key-facts-about-asian-americans/http://), often representing the elite of their countries (in spite of what Trump says). > [@](#): > > Today 59% of the U.S. Asian population was born in another country. That share rises to 73% among adult Asians. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1598 "2018-07-31T17:58:07Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > (I think it’s fair use to quote something in it entirety when it has been censored) [Moderating] I’m not sure why you would think that, but no. I’ve removed the copyrighted text you posted. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1599 "2018-07-31T22:22:44Z")
I thought I only had time (until later tonight) to peek but not respond; but I am very curious to ask LHOD something real quick. Are you willing to go on the record as saying Columbia (and former Juillard) student Coleman Hughes is an idiot? (If not, you will essentially prove one of his major points.) ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1600 "2018-08-01T00:51:46Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I thought I only had time (until later tonight) to peek but not respond; but I am very curious to ask LHOD something real quick. Are you willing to go on the record as saying Columbia (and former Juillard) student Coleman Hughes is an idiot? (If not, you will essentially prove one of his major points.) Wow, that’s, um… a strangely stupid challenge. Are you willing to go on record admitting that you’re an idiot? (If not, you prove nothing.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=79) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=81)