# Interesting podcast conversation between Sam Harris and Charles Murray (of "Bell Curve" fame) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 23, 2017, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052 "2017-04-23T09:21:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 84
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1661 "2018-08-05T01:37:18Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I actually have relatively little time in the day I can spend just sitting and looking at something, whether it’s a book or a screen—and I prefer to spend most of that time doing interactive stuff like this very post Like I said, I’m not trying to tell you how to spend your time (although I will note that looking up and reading all or part of an occasional research article here and there, if it’s not too dense with specialist jargon, is not really as time-consuming as you seem to think). I’m just pointing out that limiting your information sources to the spoken-conversation audio podcast format, with no easy access to any cites or direct quotations or contextual information, disadvantages you when it comes to being able to carry on a fact-based, critically analytical discussion of occasional soundbites you remember hearing on a podcast episode. **As your own frequent posts requesting other posters to find out facts or analyze arguments for you make abundantly clear.** > [@SlackerInc](#): > > Calling Sam’s podcast “infotainment” just drips with condescension at least, or even outright derision. “Infotainment” is a term for broadcast media intended both to entertain and inform. If Harris wanted his podcasts to consist of straight-up news reportage or rigorous scholarly analysis of research complete with detailed citations, AFAIK there’s absolutely nothing stopping him from creating such podcasts, at least up to the limits of his own knowledge and abilities. It appears that he prefers the more informal Sunday-sermon and interview-chat formats precisely because they will be more accessible and entertaining for his listeners. What’s wrong with calling that “infotainment”? > [@SlackerInc](#): > > By your lights, then, aren’t the following also “infotainment”? > > —A Ken Burns/Lynn Nozick documentary Some of Burns’ work certainly [has been called so](https://books.google.com/books?id=Jf8rpVMlr_YC&pg=PA206), and I don’t see in what way that assessment is “derisory” or even “condescending”: > [@](#): > > By skillfully weaving together visual fragments and sounds, _Baseball_ provides viewers with a rich sensory experience. But because it is largely driven by nostalgic images, dramatizations, and sound bites rather than analysis, it implicitly argues that feeling is first, that the best way to know the past is emotionally. Perhaps sometimes it is. In _Baseball_’s case, the result is essentially superb infotainment and mediocre social history […] > [@SlackerInc](#): > > —A TNC cover story in The Atlantic I presume you’re using “TNC” to refer to the writer Ta-Nehisi Coates? If so, then my response is that IME the term “infotainment” is typically applied to broadcast media, whereas Coates’ articles would typically be called “opinion pieces” or “popular journalism” or “culture punditry” or something like that. If you want to make a case for including such written publications in the category “infotainment”, I’d be willing to discuss it: I certainly won’t be taking to the fainting couch over it. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > —PBS Newshour That is typically categorized as “broadcast news journalism”. Again, if you have a case to make for lumping it in with “infotainment”, let’s hear it. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > —An evening lecture, held at a university but advertised and open to the public, by a visiting scholar on gravity waves or the evolution of Romance languages (these are both examples of actual lectures I have attended at my alma mater) It would depend on the technical level and intended audience of the lecture. Again, AFAIK it is more typical to apply the term “infotainment” to broadcast media rather than to in-person talks, but I would be happy to characterize a non-technical, primarily image-based, popular lecture on linguistics or physics for a general audience with no specialized knowledge of the subject as “infotainment”. More esoteric presentations on academic subjects aimed at more specialized audiences usually have too high an information-to-entertainment ratio to fall into that category. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > I have learned a great deal from not only Sam’s podcast but others That’s nice, but the trouble is it’s not very evident from your attempts at debate. And given how frequently claims that you’ve cited from podcasts (or at least, from your memories of the podcasts) have been rebutted by research sources cited by other posters, you might want to reconsider your assumptions about how much you’re actually learning from them. Absorbing a bunch of insecurely-supported opinions and questionable factual assertions well padded with self-congratulatory smugness about their alleged intellectual boldness in “frank discussion of taboo topics” is not necessarily the same thing as learning. In short, **SlackerInc** , if you want your podcast-memory-derived snippets of argument to be taken seriously as debate material, then you need to stop falling back on feeble responses like the following: > [@SlackerInc](#): > > You could actually listen to the podcast episode […] > > He sounded sure enough that I am going to assume he has his facts straight unless and until I see counter-evidence […] > > If any of that is provably untrue, I’d like to know […] > > more people listen to each episode of his podcast than have read any of his bestselling books […] > > I have not read them […] but I assume they cover the same ground as the podcast episode […] > > I actually have relatively little time in the day I can spend just sitting and looking at something […] > > I acknowledged that I don’t know for sure that he’s right and essentially invited anyone, crowdsourcewise, to demonstrate otherwise […] > > […] no one, not a single person on Earth, fact-checks every bit of information they read or hear […] You are pretty much refusing to research **anything** in these discussions that you want to engage in about these informal and lightly-documented claims remembered, with varying degrees of accuracy, from podcast conversations. And you’re weakly trying to excuse that refusal on the plea that it’s not possible for anybody to research **everything**. Do you understand how this inevitably makes you come across as a critical-thinking lightweight relying on other posters to do your disputational due diligence for you? It would be a different matter if you posted something along the lines of _“Hey, I thought this podcast discussion (link) was interesting and here’s my best recollection of the gist of the arguments that were made. Anybody have any opinions or corroborations or rebuttals they’d like to offer?”_ Nobody would mind doing a little research for your benefit if you made it clear that you understood that you can’t have an informed opinion without basing it on research, and that what you know about the topic so far doesn’t necessarily qualify you to have an informed opinion. But instead, you’re typically marching back into this thread in full _Harris-jugend_ battle array with an opinion already espoused, issuing rhetorical challenges with strong subtexts of _“Dear Leader made some fantastic points in this week’s sermon, let’s see you pathetic politically correct hive-minders try to refute **this**!”_ You are ignorantly taking a side on the issue _du jour_ before you’ve put in any work to learn anything about it, other than passively listening to a highly partisan podcast because that’s what fits best into your busy day. And then you get miffed when we call you lazy and gullible. **TL;DR: either put in the effort to research a debate topic or get off your goddamn soapbox about it.** ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1662 "2018-08-05T22:04:34Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I’ haven’t done meticulous reading through sources to provide cites, you missed, or are willfully ignoring, the whole tangent about school funding. (EE would prefer you not dig back into that.) Why would I prefer you not dig back into that? That’s something you got utterly wrong, lied about, and then refused to admit error. It’s a prime example of your lack of honesty or intellectual integrity. I would assume it’s something _you’d_ prefer not to bring up. But maybe you’re so stupid you don’t think everyone participating in the thread didn’t notice what a lying dishonest stupid racist weasel you were. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1663 "2018-08-05T22:07:49Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > 1. and 2) No, I acknowledged that I don’t know for sure that he’s right and essentially invited anyone, crowdsourcewise, to demonstrate otherwise. You’re willing to denigrate an entire race of people based on shit you heard, but you’re not willing to do a minimum of fact checking to verify it’s correct first? You have the time to post stupid long screeds about how blacks are inferior but not the time to verify your facts are correct? I think it’s more likely you lack the intellectual ability to fact check things, and you use the “lack of time” thing as an excuse to cover up your low IQ. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1664 "2018-08-07T14:31:28Z")
So did we ever figure out what the OP was about? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1665 "2018-08-07T14:36:29Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So did we ever figure out what the OP was about? One part burden of proof fallacy, one part pseudoscientific attempt to justify racism. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2018, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1666 "2018-08-09T02:27:35Z")
I will be back. Over the past five days I have had no time for the SDMB (or for Facebook, or email, or reading anything, or watching TV; I have however listened to a shit-ton of podcasts) but I think I might have an hour or two tomorrow. In the meantime: eat shit, you blatant and shameless liars. It’s really almost on a Trumpian level at this point. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2018, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1667 "2018-08-09T02:52:42Z")
Is that when you finish listening to your last Alex Jones podcast…you should have downloaded more while you had the chance. ---
**Author:** ![Covfefe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ee7513/32.png) [@Covfefe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covfefe)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2018, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1668 "2018-08-09T03:36:14Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > It’s really almost on a Trumpian level at this point. You should see some of the shenanigans in the “New York Times hires unapologetic racist writer” thread. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2018, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1669 "2018-08-09T04:05:08Z")
> [@Covfefe](#): > > You should see some of the shenanigans in the “New York Times hires unapologetic racist writer” thread. The OP on that thread lost me when he used _the very same racist_\* that the OP here tried to use to defend Murray and Harris. - Andrew Sullivan ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2018, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1670 "2018-08-09T04:59:22Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I will be back. Over the past five days I have had no time for the SDMB (or for Facebook, or email, or reading anything, or watching TV; I have however listened to a shit-ton of podcasts) [snip] Ah yes, but as **Kimstu** pointed out, you also have to include better citations or context to follow. Also one has to be sure to listen to something else, (besides the bubble of information you are mostly relying with,) like for example: podcasts from professors and teachers at the University of Alabama. > **[Speaking of Race: Podcasts](http://speakingofrace.ua.edu/podcast)** > > podcasts about race, science, and society With one very relevant podcast [where Murray, Harris and even David Reich are criticised](http://speakingofrace.ua.edu/podcast/flash-the-episode-about-sam-harris-versus-ezra-klein-versus-actual-science). > [@](#): > > **Erik Peterson** : Reight just talked about what he thinks is a form of Orthodoxy that he fears is causing geneticist and anthropologists, which are the two groups of Scholars most likely to be grappling with these issues, to turn a blind eye to any study that might show a genetic difference between racial groups. > > Which we would agree with but then on the other side of his mouth he says there are hard genetic differences between racial groups and he even gives a few examples the first uses is on work which report to genetically base risk factor for prostate cancer among people who self-identify as African-Americans and then the second is research conducted by other people including a team that includes Economist Daniel Benjamin on people of European ancestry against self-reported. Looking to see if genetic variation appeared between people of different education levels. > > **Jo Weaver** : Despite the fact that Reich is more measured with his arguments and has more training in genetics than most of the other thinkers we have been talking about today; he still Falls prey to the same logical error: a failure to grasp the difference between populations and races. And in fact just a few days ago on March 30th a group of 67 health scientist geneticist and Anthropologists including our friend Joseph Graves. Published an open letter in Buzzfeed that they called “how not to talk about about race and genetics” and it was responding to this debate. > > There they explain why Reich’s finding that there is a genetic risk factor for prostate cancer among African-Americans does not prove the validity of African-American as a biological race category. > > Can you read what they say there? > > **Erik Peterson** : “These people may have a higher frequency of a version of a particular gene that is linked to a higher risk of prostate cancer, but lots of people not from West Africa also have the same gene, we don’t call these other people a race. Nor do we say their race is relevant to their condition. Finding a high prevalence of a particular genetic variance in a group does not make that group a race.” (BTW, there is no transcript available for that podcast, I will explain later how it was possible to write a relevant quote with just a few minutes of effort and using computers and the internet) ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2018, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1671 "2018-08-09T08:04:20Z")
> [@Covfefe](#): > > You should see some of the shenanigans in the “New York Times hires unapologetic racist writer” thread. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > The OP on that thread lost me when he used _the very same racist_\* that the OP here tried to use to defend Murray and Harris. > > - Andrew Sullivan To be fair to Blalron, he at least had the decency to quote pertinent parts of Sullivan’s argument in his post, so they could be discussed directly. And while I don’t agree with his stance, I haven’t seen him claim that people can’t discuss the topic unless they first listen to a 90 minute podcast. Frankly, it’s way less of a clusterfuck than this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2018, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1672 "2018-08-09T12:35:23Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > The OP on that thread lost me when he used _the very same racist_\* that the OP here tried to use to defend Murray and Harris. > > - Andrew Sullivan You mean the openly gay pot smoking journalist Andrew Sullivan? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2018, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1673 "2018-08-09T14:49:29Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You mean the openly gay pot smoking journalist Andrew Sullivan? Ever heard about that saying that “a jerk that agrees with me is still a jerk?” Likewise, a gay guy that agrees with many about gay rights can still be an unapologetic believer of “scientific” racism. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2018, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1674 "2018-08-09T15:12:14Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I will be back. Over the past five days I have had no time for the SDMB (or for Facebook, or email, or reading anything, or watching TV; I have however listened to a shit-ton of podcasts) but I think I might have an hour or two tomorrow. I’ve been filling in the void of your absence by listening to my racist neighbor ramble on about shit he heard on AM radio. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2018, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1675 "2018-08-09T15:45:36Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > I’ve been filling in the void of your absence by listening to my racist neighbor ramble on about shit he heard on AM radio. Sorry to just butt in, but this is just goddamn funny! ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2018, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1676 "2018-08-10T22:45:43Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > You are pretty much refusing to research **anything** in these discussions that you want to engage in about these informal and lightly-documented claims remembered, with varying degrees of accuracy, from podcast conversations. Bullshit. I can’t believe you would even claim this. Disappointing. In this very thread, on April 17 alone, I authored four carefully researched posts that cited four different written sources: [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20907555&postcount=1246](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20907555&postcount=1246) [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20908773&postcount=1269](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20908773&postcount=1269) [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20908951&postcount=1276](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20908951&postcount=1276) [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20909022&postcount=1282](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20909022&postcount=1282) And you posted that day—I checked. So what gives? This was less than four months ago, and it was hardly the only day this ever happened. As for the educational value of podcasts, let’s step away from the polarizing Waking Up podcast for a moment and note that because of the Very Bad Wizards podcast (hosted by a professor of pscyhology from Cornell and a professor of philosophy from the University of Houston), I know a correlate to suicide risk that neither you nor anyone else outside of that podcast’s listeners (and the researchers in the psychology department at Harvard) know. Listen to 1:06:58 - 1:07:50 and you can have that inside scoop as well: [Podcasts | Pandora](https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/very-bad-wizards-very-bad-wizards/e/55077559?autoplay=true) I would also urge you to listen to a segment earlier in that podcast (from 29:37 to the break a couple minutes later) where they discuss the replication crisis in social science, to get a feeling for the value in this medium. It’s serious scholars talking about serious stuff, but in an engaging way and with a probing, dialectical energy that can’t be replicated in an academic journal. And unlike the college lecture, traveling preacher etc. OR written content, there is no opportunity cost (as long as you listen to podcasts the way I do: I have never just sat down and listened to one without doing something else). The podcast information comes in addition to whatever a person might take in through dedicated non-multitasking study. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This might be believable if you had the slightest interest in criticizing incorrect and foolish statements when made by Harris, Pinker, or others you admire. Or had the slightest interest in challenging your own preconceived notions about race and intelligence. This too is ground we’ve already traversed. I have cited multiple examples of things I’ve disagreed with Harris about (relating to utilitarianism, the self, and his doctrine of universal morality based on his “greatest possible misery for everyone” motif), although I can’t recall anything from Pinker I found fault with. And I’ve pointed out to you before that being raised by social scientists, whose white social scientist friends adopted a black boy who became the only black kid in my high school and was also co-valedictorian in a school that was fairly elite as public schools go, inculcated in me a much different view of this issue than I have developed over the past ten to twenty years. You just don’t like that my evolution has been in the “wrong” direction from your perspective. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2018, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1677 "2018-08-11T00:05:01Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > This too is ground we’ve already traversed. I have cited multiple examples of things I’ve disagreed with Harris about (relating to utilitarianism, the self, and his doctrine of universal morality based on his “greatest possible misery for everyone” motif), although I can’t recall anything from Pinker I found fault with. And I’ve pointed out to you before that being raised by social scientists, whose white social scientist friends adopted a black boy who became the only black kid in my high school and was also co-valedictorian in a school that was fairly elite as public schools go, inculcated in me a much different view of this issue than I have developed over the past ten to twenty years. You just don’t like that my evolution has been in the “wrong” direction from your perspective. You should’ve found fault with Harris’s ridiculous and false assertions about race (that it’s a primarily biological classification, when it’s very clearly primarily societal, with only a very slight correlation with biology), as well as his utter failure to challenge Murray on any of his ridiculous assertions. And I don’t like that your evolution has been towards baseless white supremacism, with ridiculous (and factually baseless) assertions about race and intelligence (as well as evidence-free multiple intelligences varying among races that just so happen to match white supremacist pseudoscience). Hatred isn’t required to have white supremacist views, as you’re proving again and again. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2018, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1678 "2018-08-11T00:16:00Z")
At least you’re back to representing an arguable position rather than saying falsehoods about me. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2018, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1679 "2018-08-11T00:23:36Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > At least you’re back to representing an arguable position rather than saying falsehoods about me. If you’re accepting that you have baseless white supremacist views, maybe you can try and change. You don’t have to have these views. The evidence certainly doesn’t support them. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2018, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1680 "2018-08-11T00:28:10Z")
If you like podcasts the following book is sold as an audiobook. WHITE AMERICAN YOUTH: My Descent into America’s Most Violent Hate Movement – and How I Got Out – Christian PicciolinI [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=83) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=85)