# Interesting podcast conversation between Sam Harris and Charles Murray (of "Bell Curve" fame) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 23, 2017, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052 "2017-04-23T09:21:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 99
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1961 "2018-10-30T22:17:49Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I’d complain about their political views, sure, just as I do about the political views of many native-born Republican voters. I wouldn’t complain that their ethnicity and/or culture is somehow “destroying” the US, though. I’m sure you wouldn’t, but you and most other liberals would not consider it a moral imperative to for the US to welcome almost anyone from Russia that wanted to come here. If immigants voted primarily Republicans, Democrats’ current position AT BEST, would be the one they had prior to the Obama years: welcoming to high levels of legal immigration, staunchly opposed to illegal immigration and supportive of strict enforcement. I point to Democrats still being not particularly eager to bring Cubans in. The Democratic party’s view of Cuban immigrants is no different today than it was during the Clinton years. Their justification is that Cubans have long had special status and shouldn’t have that special status, but I think the reality is simply that being generous to Cubans does nothing for the Democratic Party. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1962 "2018-10-30T22:20:40Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I have said it many times before: I don’t believe countries like the U.S. (or Australia, or Canada) have any moral ground to stand on in trying to preserve a white, Anglo-Saxon majority, when that group has no ancestors who were here 500 years ago. I think it’s quite different if Gallic French people want to preserve a country dominated by their ethnicity and culture; same goes for Japan (who generally gets a pass on this issue for some reason). What about Israel? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1963 "2018-10-30T22:25:49Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > My only concern is that right things should be done the right way. Americans never consented to massive immigration flows from the Americas. Well, that’s one way of looking at it. Another way of looking at it is that when we Americans - supported repressive/corrupt regimes in the Americas in order to “fight socialism” and/or benefit our corporate interests - turned a blind eye to the corruption of our own elected officials in catering to employers who wanted cheap labor and didn’t much care where it came from - demanded to be provided with goods and services so cheaply that legal workers were priced out of labor markets - refused to pay attention to where our cheap goods were coming from or where our contractors were hiring their labor to provide our cheap services … then we were, effectively, consenting to “massive immigration flows from the Americas”. Because we incentivized it, rewarded it and didn’t crack down on the illegal activities of our fellow citizens who benefited from it. Massive flows of immigrants came north of the border largely because we made it profitable and low-risk for their employers to hire them, and helped make it dangerous and unprofitable for them to stay where they were. If you irresponsibly prop up exploitative and illegal practices because all you care about is low consumer prices, then you don’t have much room to complain when the exploitative and illegal practices turn out to have some negative consequences, is all I’m saying. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1964 "2018-10-30T22:31:29Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I’m sure you wouldn’t, but you and most other liberals would not consider it a moral imperative to for the US to welcome almost anyone from Russia that wanted to come here. I don’t consider it a moral imperative (and don’t know of any other mainstream liberal who does) for the US to welcome almost anyone from Latin America that wants to come here, either. This is sliding back towards that “uncontrolled immigration” rhetoric which, again, **is not what any liberals in the political mainstream are actually advocating**. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1965 "2018-10-30T22:38:52Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > What about Israel? Not a fan. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1966 "2018-10-30T22:42:33Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I don’t consider it a moral imperative (and don’t know of any other mainstream liberal who does) for the US to welcome almost anyone from Latin America that wants to come here, either. This is sliding back towards that “uncontrolled immigration” rhetoric which, again, **is not what any liberals in the political mainstream are actually advocating**. Would be nice if they advocated something then,rather than just opposing all enforcement. When you don’t even support workplace enforcement anymore, it’s fair to ask what enforcement you would support. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1967 "2018-10-30T22:50:40Z")
What are we to make of “Abolish ICE”, which generally comes without elaboration? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1968 "2018-10-30T23:05:18Z")
It means one of two things: 1. Abolish immigration enforcement. 2. Return to pre-ICE immigration enforcement, which was extremely ineffective. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1969 "2018-10-31T13:29:03Z")
Meanwhile, in Pakistan, the Supreme Court has released a Christian woman who had spent eight years on death row for allegedly insulting Mohammed, after a row with neighbors who were mad that she had drunk from a cup of water, thus putting her Christian cooties on it. So her release is good news. But other details from this case illustrate the barbarity of this religion: > **[Asia Bibi: Pakistan acquits Christian woman on death row](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-46040515)** > > Asia Bibi's conviction was one of the most prominent cases of blasphemy that have polarised Pakistan. > [@](#): > > As with her previous trials and appeals, large crowds gathered outside the court in Islamabad on Wednesday demanding her conviction be upheld and the execution carried out. > She has been offered asylum by several countries and is expected to leave the country. > Her daughter, Eisham Ashiq, had previously told the AFP news agency that if she were released: “I will hug her and will cry meeting her and will thank God that he has got her released.” > But the family said they feared for their safety and would likely have to leave Pakistan. You are kidding yourself if you think this could happen in any non-Muslim country. And this is not some fetid backwater. Pakistan is a nuclear power, with a population larger than Russia, and roughly equal to that of Germany, France, and England combined. > [@](#): > > The court delivered its verdict quickly, no doubt aware of the sensitivity of the case and the danger of a violent reaction to it. > Asia Bibi’s lawyer, closely flanked by a policeman, told me he was “happy” with the verdict, but also afraid for his and his client’s safety. > Even after she is freed, the legacy of her case will continue. Shortly after her conviction a prominent politician, Punjab Governor Salman Taseer, was murdered for speaking out in her support and calling for the blasphemy laws to be reformed. > The killer - Mumtaz Qadri - was executed, but has become a cult hero with a large shrine dedicated to him on the outskirts of Islamabad. > His supporters also created a political party - campaigning to preserve the blasphemy laws - which gathered around two million votes in this year’s general election. > It’s the same party which many fear could be responsible for violent unrest in the coming days. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1970 "2018-10-31T13:34:01Z")
In “Dark-Web”-adjacent news: Jordan Peterson posts condemning the (((echoes))) stigma and antisemitism, gets massive blowback from his twitter followers. I wonder if this might lead him to ask himself why so many of his followers are antisemitic fascists and neo-nazis. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1971 "2018-10-31T13:54:08Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Would be nice if they advocated something then,rather than just opposing all enforcement. When you don’t even support workplace enforcement anymore, it’s fair to ask what enforcement you would support. Cite? Seems like this describes a “liberal” made of straw. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1972 "2018-10-31T13:54:29Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > But other details from this case illustrate the barbarity of this religion: You mean the barbarity of the Pakistani legal code, which is based on a combination of local tribal/cultural mores and a particular interpretation of a particular sect of Islamic teachings? You’ve apparently learned nothing, and are just doubling down on your own ignorant bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1973 "2018-10-31T14:08:19Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You mean the barbarity of the Pakistani legal code, which is based on a combination of local tribal/cultural mores and a particular interpretation of a particular sect of Islamic teachings? No. The Pakistani legal system ultimately set her free. Her family now has to flee the country because of this medieval Islamic culture. Tell me in what non-Muslim country something like this could happen. I won’t even insist that you limit it to large nuclear powers. Not even in those (also admittedly backward) sub-Saharan African Christian countries where they oppress gays, is this kind of thing conceivable. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1974 "2018-10-31T14:15:01Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > No. The Pakistani legal system ultimately set her free. Her family now has to flee the country because of this medieval Islamic culture. > > Tell me in what non-Muslim country something like this could happen. I won’t even insist that you limit it to large nuclear powers. Not even in those (also admittedly backward) sub-Saharan African Christian countries where they oppress gays, is this kind of thing conceivable. In the US, someone just killed a bunch of Jews for their religious beliefs. Religious killings are relatively common in many Christian countries. Particularly very poor countries. Newsflash – backwards and barbaric ideologies (regardless of religious affiliations) tend to be far more popular in very poor countries. Desperate and hungry people are easier to manipulate and use for nefarious purposes. Pakistan is a very poor country. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1975 "2018-10-31T14:30:27Z")
You will desperately reach for any excuse to avoid confronting reality. It’s not I who needs to learn from you, but the other way ‘round, fella. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1976 "2018-10-31T14:42:11Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > You will desperately reach for any excuse to avoid confronting reality. It’s not I who needs to learn from you, but the other way ‘round, fella. What reality? You’re spreading hateful and ignorant bullshit. That’s the reality. There’s plenty of things around the world worth criticizing, including aspects of various sects of Islamic teachings and related cultures. If you made a targeted criticism of the aspect of Pakistani tribal culture and the particular sect of Islam responsible for a particular instance of barbarity, then I’d have no problem at all with it. But you insist on lazy and ignorant broad-brushing. Hate, ignorance, and broad-brushing are easy. They don’t require effort. What you’re doing requires no effort. Real cultural, geopolitical, and historical analysis requires effort. You’re not doing that. You’re being lazy, ignorant, and hateful. And what you advocate would make America weaker, and those who wish to do us harm stronger. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1977 "2018-10-31T14:54:39Z")
Nope. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1978 "2018-10-31T15:13:13Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Nope. Yes, you do. > **[Immigration makes America great](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/4/3/14624918/the-case-for-immigration)** > > Current policy could be improved, but American progress depends on welcoming foreigners. > **[How Muslims, Often Misunderstood, Are Thriving in America](https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/article/being-muslim-in-america)** > > They’re a vibrant and increasingly visible part of the tapestry in communities across the nation. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1979 "2018-10-31T16:11:42Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Nope. See? Lazy as hell. Ignorance and hate are easy. Nuance and reasoned analysis are hard. Making a lazy post isn’t the end of the world. I’m sure I’ve done it before. But when you combine it with ignorance and hatefulness, you’re gonna get called out for it. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1980 "2018-10-31T17:14:16Z")
No, what actually happens is that you “call out” any post that doesn’t jibe with your politically correct imperatives. Which is fine, but it’s nauseating how you won’t just limit your claims to “I don’t like your ideology, I prefer mine” and instead try to dress it up in this grandiose, self-righteous Manichaean verbiage. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=98) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=100)