# Interesting quote from Paul Bremer **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 1, 2003, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-quote-from-paul-bremer/185649 "2003-07-01T20:29:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-quote-from-paul-bremer/185649/1 "2003-07-01T20:29:12Z")
> [@](#): > > The words of Paul Bremer, Washington’s overlord in Iraq, need no “sexing up”. “We are going to fight them and **impose our will** on them and we will capture or… kill them until we have imposed law and order on this country,” he declared at the weekend. “We dominate the scene and we will continue to **impose our will** on this country.” > **[Andrew Murray: Hostages of the empire](https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2003/jul/01/iraq.foreignpolicy)** > > Andrew Murray: US forces are now engaged in massive search-and-destroy sweeps in central and northern Iraq against forces opposing their rule. Impose our will?? Isn’t Iraq a free country? We have to impose our will on a country? That’s how you win friends and influence people. But we aren’t an occupation army are we? We are in deep excrement people. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-quote-from-paul-bremer/185649/2 "2003-07-01T20:34:31Z")
Is the US just making up what it should do as it goes along or is there some kind of master plan in place? If so is this plan available for anyone to see? Does the plan inclusde any kind of timetable? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-quote-from-paul-bremer/185649/3 "2003-07-01T20:42:54Z")
Another Guardian scoop? :rolleyes: I’m hesitant about this. I’d like to see the entire transcript. The Guardian is somewhat sensationalist, IMHO. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-quote-from-paul-bremer/185649/4 "2003-07-01T20:55:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SimonX \* > I’d like to see the entire transcript. Here you go: [BBC Breakfast with Frost interview with Paul Bremer broadcast on 29 June, 2003](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/breakfast_with_frost/3029904.stm) ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-quote-from-paul-bremer/185649/5 "2003-07-01T21:07:39Z")
No, Iraq is NOT a ‘free country’. Iraq is an _occupied_ country. The occupying force has requirements that it must abide by, INCLUDING the maintenance of order. If there are terrorists running around in the country blowing up things and killing people, the U.S. MUST respond. The U.S. must impose its will on Iraq in exactly the same way that the U.S. government must impose its will on the American people when they become violent or otherwise break the law. You guys are really stretching to paint the U.S. as an evil empire bent on subjugating other countries. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-quote-from-paul-bremer/185649/6 "2003-07-01T21:08:42Z")
Perhaps if you had actually read the source article, you would have seen that he was referring to those Iraqi forces still fighting the war, not the general Iraqi populace. Nice try. Are you going to post a retraction? I won’t hold my breath… > [@](#): > > PETER SISSONS: It can’t do anything for their moral, that practically no day goes by without an American or a British soldier being killed now. > > PAUL BREMER: Look, there are people out here, particularly remnants of the old regime, Ba’athists, Fedayeen Saddam, perhaps even some terrorists from neighbouring countries, who do not accept the military outcome of the coalition, and they are still fighting us and we’re going to fight them and impose our will on them and we will capture or if necessary kill them until we have imposed law and order on this country. Unfortunately it is the case that we will continue to take casualties such as the tragic attack against British forces in the south earlier this week. But there’s no strategic threat to the coalition here, we dominate the scene and we will continue to impose law and order and impose our will on this country. ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-quote-from-paul-bremer/185649/7 "2003-07-01T21:10:25Z")
If you have Realplayer, the link I provided also allows you watch the show. For those who don’t bother clicking links, the full quote is: > [@](#): > > PETER SISSONS: It can’t do anything for their moral, that practically no day goes by without an American or a British soldier being killed now. > > PAUL BREMER: Look, there are people out here, particularly remnants of the old regime, Ba’athists, Fedayeen Saddam, perhaps even some terrorists from neighbouring countries, who do not accept the military outcome of the coalition, and they are still fighting us and we’re going to fight them and impose our will on them and we will capture or if necessary kill them until we have imposed law and order on this country. Unfortunately it is the case that we will continue to take casualties such as the tragic attack against British forces in the south earlier this week. But there’s no strategic threat to the coalition here, we dominate the scene and we will continue to impose law and order and impose our will on this country. ---
**Author:** ![Fang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/96bed5/32.png) [@Fang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fang)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-quote-from-paul-bremer/185649/8 "2003-07-01T21:16:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Reeder \* > **Impose our will?? Isn’t Iraq a free country? We have to impose our will on a country? That’s how you win friends and influence people. But we aren’t an occupation army are we?** Um, yes, we are an occupying army. US, British, and to a much lesser extent, Australian forces occupy Iraq. We won the war, and we’re still there; that’s what an occupying army is. There’s plenty to criticize about how the occupation is being handled, but maintaining troops in another country after winning a war there is occupation, and I don’t think anybody is denying that (with the possible exception of some military euphemisms from Rumsfeld). Couple points: First, the first “impose our will” is way out of context, and the second is to some extent as well. The “them” in the first refers to military opponents of the coalition forces – “remnants of the old regime, Ba’athists, Fedayeen Saddam, perhaps even some terrorists from neighbouring countries” – I don’t suppose that’s clear when you “Dowd-ify” the quote as the _Guardian_ has. The second “impose our will” is, I think, merely meant to imply that the US forces are in control and are not in serious danger of being pushed out militarily. Perhaps not the best turn of phrase, but we’re not exactly making Iraq the 51st state either. Second, no, Iraq is not a “free country”. It has not ever been a free country. It is certainly freer than it was 6 months ago, however, and the goal of the occupation is to make it not only a free country, but able to stay that way. What would you have the US do, merely pull out and abandon Iraq to warlordism, factionalism, possible theocracy, instability? (I don’t suppose you’d then be complaining about how we “abandoned” Iraq like we abandoned Afghanistan?) The truth is, if the US wants a net gain out of this whole ordeal, not to mention Iraq and the Middle East in general, we are in it for the long haul. Bremer’s approach, while lacking in numerous respects, is certainly better than Garner’s, who simply wanted to go in, turn on a few lights, and be out in 6 months. Restoring civilian infrastructure, enabling a market economy, writing a constitution, and creating self-reliant police and military forces takes time, and it is ridiculous to think we should merely pull out in the interests of making Iraq a “free country” (which it certainly would not be at this point). Third, well, I find it interesting, though not surprising, that the _Guardian_ labels Bremer an “overlord”. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-quote-from-paul-bremer/185649/9 "2003-07-01T22:17:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > \*\* The U.S. must impose its will on Iraq in exactly the same way that the U.S. government must impose its will on the American people when they become violent or otherwise break the law. > \*\* I’m sure that you’re aware of the dramatic differences between the treatment of US nationals and citizens and Iraqis by the US government. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-quote-from-paul-bremer/185649/10 "2003-07-01T23:09:52Z")
Yes, I am. This surprises you? This is bad? A better analogy would be to compare the treatment of Iraqis by the U.S. military, and the treatment of Americans by the government in situations where martial law is declared. There is a general state of lawlessness in Iraq right now. It is under positive military control. The military has to abide by the Geneva conventions, not the United States Constitution. There is no right to free assembly, free speech, ownership of firearms, etc. You guys need to find another reason to criticise the United States. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-quote-from-paul-bremer/185649/11 "2003-07-01T23:24:31Z")
Quite right, **Sam** , except that we hardly need _another_ reason. There is massively sufficient basis for criticism. This little _faux pas_ is almost meaningless next to the staggering stupidity of this military adventure, a stupidity, I must point out, compounded by miserable planning and ham-fisted execution. This is dumber than Grenada, and that’s saying something! So, **Sam** is right on this one, this is a mere embellishment, a minor enhancement, like the cherry on top of a turd sundae. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-quote-from-paul-bremer/185649/12 "2003-07-02T01:27:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > \*\* > Yes, I am. > \*\* Just making sure you knew you were using a hyperbole when you said “exactly the same way.” > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > \*\* > This surprises you? > \*\* No, I expected you to know that there was a difference. It would’ve surpirsed me if you _didn’t_ know that there was a difference. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > \*\* > This is bad? > \*\* No, it’s great that you know. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > \*\* > You guys need to find another reason to criticise the United States. > \*\* Why? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-quote-from-paul-bremer/185649/13 "2003-07-02T01:46:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > \*\*You guys need to find another reason to criticise the United States. \*\* As soon as you get a clue about differentiating between the United States and the policies of the Bush administration. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-quote-from-paul-bremer/185649/14 "2003-07-02T01:50:41Z")
Great point **FI**! ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-quote-from-paul-bremer/185649/15 "2003-07-02T02:54:53Z")
Yeah, that’s great. I point out a fundamental flaw in your reasoning (comparing treatments of citizens of the U.S. to people under military occupation in Iraq), and your response it to quote short sentences of mine out of context and add pithy comments to them. Why did I expect more? ---
**Author:** ![Clu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@Clu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clu)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-quote-from-paul-bremer/185649/16 "2003-07-02T03:50:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > \*\*Perhaps if you had actually read the source article, you would have seen that he was referring to those Iraqi forces still fighting the war, not the general Iraqi populace. Nice try. Are you going to post a retraction? I won’t hold my breath… \*\* To quote the excerpt from the article again: > [@](#): > > PETER SISSONS: It can’t do anything for their moral, that practically no day goes by without an American or a British soldier being killed now. > > PAUL BREMER: Look, there are people out here, particularly remnants of the old regime, Ba’athists, Fedayeen Saddam, perhaps even some terrorists from neighbouring countries, who do not accept the military outcome of the coalition, and they are still fighting us and we’re going to fight them and impose our will on them and we will capture or if necessary kill them until we have imposed law and order on this country. Unfortunately it is the case that we will continue to take casualties such as the tragic attack against British forces in the south earlier this week. But there’s no strategic threat to the coalition here, we dominate the scene and we will continue to impose law and order and impose our will on this country. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but that this states, in a roundabout way, is that the forces who fight the US will meet their demise. From a neo-conservative standpoint (i’m a liberal), I would agree, this is the best way to handle it. However, when viewing this conflict as a US-outsider, or more specifically, as an arab in Iraq, this statement could be interpreted as: Do what we say. If you form resistance movements, we will kill you. The US came here to liberate Iraq from Saddam Hussein in order to curtail proliferation of WMD, and if you don’t like the way we’re running things, then stand down or get killed. I feel bad about this because as a liberal, I’ve seen this tactic as successful in the past. Whether or not it’s fair is another issue. Whether or not this could have been handled more diplomatically is but another issue. IMO, if the US wants to save face, they need to dump a shitload of money into Iraq. Collounsbury mentioned in a diff. post buying guns FROM the Iraqis. There are things that this adminstration could do to really help the Iraqis, but these things don’t seem to be a priority for this Bush admin. I’m gonna digress & probably start down the course to a pit thread, but based on the history of US intervention in the past, it seems like the US would like to instigate rebellion in Iraq. It could give them easier targets for the US war against terror. The reason I quoted your post above was to indicate that the average Iraqi civilian is also affected by this strategy. They can either bow down to the U.S., or get cut down. Either way they have to choose sides. If I were an Iraqi, I would be hard-pressed to switch to the US side. Especially considering the history of european intervention in Iraq during the early 1900s. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-quote-from-paul-bremer/185649/17 "2003-07-02T03:55:31Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > \*\* > I point out a fundamental flaw in your reasoning (comparing treatments of citizens of the U.S. to people under military occupation in Iraq)…_\* Do you mean where I said this? > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > \*\* > The U.S. must impose its will on Iraq in exactly the same way that the U.S. government must impose its will on the American people when they become violent or otherwise break the law._\* Oh, wait a minute, I didn’t say that or make that comparison. Who did I wonder? Oh, I see. Why it was you, **Sam Stone**. **Sam Stone** said that the USG “must impose its will on Iraq in **exactly the same way** that the U.S. government must impose its will on the American people.” Why didn’t someone call you on that comparison? That’s a pretty silly thing to say- that Americans are treated exactly the same as Iraqis. Oh, wait. Someone did. In a fairly nice way by making the assumption that you were using hyperbole for effect rather than confused. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > \*\* > and your response it to quote short sentences of mine out of context and add pithy comments to them. > \*\* I quoted questions of yours and I answered them honestly and fairly. You say [pithy](http://www.bartleby.com/61/59/P0335900.html) as if it were a bad thing. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > \*\* > Why did I expect more? > \*\* What’s the bug in your butt about? Cheez! ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-quote-from-paul-bremer/185649/18 "2003-07-02T05:22:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > \*\*You guys are really stretching to paint the U.S. as an evil empire bent on subjugating other countries. \*\* Would you settle for just the Bush Administration, its friends and its naive supporters, instead? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-quote-from-paul-bremer/185649/19 "2003-07-02T12:57:34Z")
What the U.S., despite its lack of preparedness and occasional maladroit statement wants, is for the Iraqi people to get the chance to decide on their own government. Not for various outside parties, terror groups or hate-filled religious fundamentalists to impose another dictatorship on Iraq. What we want to “impose” on Iraq is freedom of choice. Groups who militarily assault U.S. forces and/or attempt to become post-Saddam bosses will be fought. If the Iraqis genuinely turn out to want a dictatorship of anti-U.S. mullahs, then things will get interesting. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-quote-from-paul-bremer/185649/20 "2003-07-02T19:58:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jackmannii \* > What the U.S., despite its lack of preparedness and occasional maladroit statement wants, is for the Iraqi people to get the chance to decide on their own government. Not for various outside parties, terror groups or hate-filled religious fundamentalists to impose another dictatorship on Iraq. And who gets to decide whether any members of a new Iraqi government are honest-to-Allah pure-bred Iraqis, or just a member of an outside party/terror group/hate-filled religious fundamentalist in disguise? Wait, wait, don’t tell me… it’s the **United States** that gets to decide, right? YEAH! Gee, isn’t that _conveeeeeeeeeeeeeenient._ > [@](#): > > What we want to “impose” on Iraq is freedom of choice. Yeah, the freedom to choose from American Puppet #1, American Puppet #2, or American Puppet #3. :rolleyes: [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-quote-from-paul-bremer/185649.md?page=2)