# Interim Pontiff? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 26, 2025, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interim-pontiff/1017537 "2025-04-26T14:06:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2025, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interim-pontiff/1017537/21 "2025-04-30T20:25:53Z")
As I understood from the news at the time, JPII clamped down on the practice of annuling marriages as a convenience for divorces - basically “Oops, this marriage never really happened”. I’m not sure the status of anny resulting little bastards. (The old joke, “There is no divorce in the Catholic church, and only Italians can get one…”) Apparently it was a common process in the USA also several decades ago, I recall some non-Catholic (Lutheran?) complaining in the news that the Catholic church had “annulled” her marriage so her ex-husband could marry a Catholic. Presumably a real _in pectore_ appointment is known to a very small select group of the inner circle or written down, just not widely known. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2025, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interim-pontiff/1017537/22 "2025-04-30T20:32:17Z")
> [@md-2000](#): > > As I understood from the news at the time, JPII clamped down on the practice of annuling marriages as a convenience for divorces - basically “Oops, this marriage never really happened”. I’m not sure the status of anny resulting little bastards. (The old joke, “There is no divorce in the Catholic church, and only Italians can get one…”) Apparently it was a common process in the USA also several decades ago, I recall some non-Catholic (Lutheran?) complaining in the news that the Catholic church had “annulled” her marriage so her ex-husband could marry a Catholic. It’s still quite common. I personally know of cases where couples who were married in the Catholic Church and, for whatever reason, needed to get out of this marriage in a clean manner (from a Catholic perspective) obtained an annulment. It can be a painful process, and it can be costly because you need to apply to the ecclesiastical courts of the church, lawyers for which are very specialised; but it is done. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2025, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interim-pontiff/1017537/23 "2025-04-30T21:58:49Z")
An annulment does absolutely require more justification than just “We don’t want to be married any more”, though, and it’s quite possible for a couple to divorce cleanly, want an annulment, and not be able to get it. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2025, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interim-pontiff/1017537/24 "2025-04-30T22:15:07Z")
A friend of mine got married to a woman who was from a Catholic culture (Mexican American). She wanted a Catholic wedding for traditional reasons and for her parents. I may have some of the details wrong but in order for that to happen, my friend had to take a bunch of classes and convert and swear to raise the kids as Catholics. My friend agreed to do the rigamarole but told her in no uncertain terms that he didn’t believe in any of that shit and would in no way actually raise the kids Catholic. She agreed to his terms. Several years later they divorced without kids. She apparently tried to get an annulment on the grounds that he was dishonest in his conversion. He was, of course, but she was in on it. She sent him some paperwork from the Church which he refused to submit. I don’t know what came of it. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2025, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interim-pontiff/1017537/25 "2025-05-01T07:46:07Z")
Sure, but under canon law one of the grounds for annulment is lack of consent, and for valid consent to a Catholic marriage it is necessary to have an understanding of the what, under Catholic teaching, constitutes an essential property of marriage. Just saying “We don’t want to be married anymore” isn’t enough, but if both spouses are in on it, and you’re willing to bend the way you present the facts, it’s not that difficult to construct something along the lines of “I never realised I couldn’t keep a lover on the side!” And use that as a ground for annulment. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2025, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interim-pontiff/1017537/26 "2025-05-01T11:59:10Z")
> [@Schnitte](#): > > And use that as a ground for annulment. Well, yeah, they can fool the humans - but what I never understand about these people is what difference does it make if they get an annulment. If you are going to lie and say you never planned to be faithful , why do you want the annulment rather than just getting a divorce? If you believe in the religious stuff, God will know the truth and if you don’t believe in it, who cares? ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2025, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interim-pontiff/1017537/27 "2025-05-01T12:09:45Z")
It can have an impact on your career. One of the cases I’ve seen was about a German high school teacher who taught religious education. This is a subject taught in German schools (also public schools) for students affiliated with one of the main churches, and the teachers are employed by the government but need a permission from their church to teach. That teacher’s wife wanted a divorce, which would have cost him his permission to teach, and that would have wrecked his career. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2025, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interim-pontiff/1017537/28 "2025-05-01T12:23:46Z")
> [@EnolaStraight](#): > > Neither nations nor corporations shut down when their respective leaders transition. The pope isn’t a political leader or a CEO in the eyes of the Church. He is considered “God’s representative on earth as the Vicar of Christ”. When the process is complete, he is The Chosen One. You can’t have an interim “Chosen One”. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2025, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interim-pontiff/1017537/29 "2025-05-01T13:20:35Z")
If this is an allusion to the doctrine of papal infallibility, then keep in mind that according to the teachings of the Catholic Church, that doctrine applies only where the pope speaks _ex cathedra_. There is a lot of uncertainty around the question which past utterances of popes, exactly, were made in this manner, but the consensus view is that it’s very, very narrow, and most likely no _ex cathedra_ teachings have been made in a long time. Catholics don’t believe that the pope is generally infallible; he’s a human and a sinner like everyone else (and he confesses on a regular basis). ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2025, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interim-pontiff/1017537/30 "2025-05-01T13:55:52Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > Well, yeah, they can fool the humans - but what I never understand about these people is what difference does it make if they get an annulment. If you are going to lie and say you never planned to be faithful , why do you want the annulment rather than just getting a divorce? If you believe in the religious stuff, God will know the truth and if you don’t believe in it, who cares? Societal or family pressure. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2025, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interim-pontiff/1017537/31 "2025-05-01T14:04:06Z")
My late wife was a Catholic. Until she wasn’t; driven out by the rampant non-scriptural misogyny. She was also a civil attorney and during ~10 of her years as a practicing Catholic she worked on the local Diocesan Tribunal. Which was the entity which heard annulment cases. In that relatively liberal Diocese, annulments were granted given just the most transparent of fig leaves. The couple still had to check off one of the acceptable reason boxes, but nobody was examining real closely how plausible that checkmark was. Where it got hard was annulling marriages of 20 years, not 20 weeks or 20 days. It may not have fooled god, but it sure made the customers happy. I was a heathen through and through and still am. She wanted to get married in the church. As in “in the small-c pretty building”, not as in “in the big-C body of christ”. The big C Church insisted we take their “engaged encounter” weekend retreat training course. And some one-on-one with the local priest; a weak-minded dweeb of the first order. A tiresome process but not so bad as all that. I could certainly see it having real value for some ~~lust~~ love-struck 18yos fresh out of high school. We were both ~30 and had been together 5 years by then. And we had to “promise” to raise our kids Catholic. We were not sure we even wanted kids, and I told her “you can try to raise then your way and I’ll try to raise them my way and we’ll see where they land.” So my promise was more about her future behavior than mine. As it was we never had kids. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2025, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interim-pontiff/1017537/32 "2025-05-01T14:12:43Z")
> [@Schnitte](#): > > that will excommunicate you latae sententiae. > [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](#): > > So we “recovered Catholic” atheists are de facto excommunicated? Cool, more resume material. Or is there still some administrative procedure that needs to happen? If you go the _latae senteneiae_, you miss out on the Bell, Book, and Candle ceremony. > **[Excommunication Scene from Becket](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRt2cKvJLlE%2F)** > > Excommunication scene from the movie Becket with Richard Burton ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2025, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interim-pontiff/1017537/33 "2025-05-01T14:14:48Z")
Which reminds me of a poster who disappeared shortly before we jumped to Discourse: > **[@BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bellrungbookshut-candlesnuffed/summary)** They (she?) were really interesting people. And that was a very clever username. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2025, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interim-pontiff/1017537/34 "2025-05-01T14:17:46Z")
An interesting aspect of the procedure for marriage annulments in the Catholic Church is that if you seek to have your marriage annulled, the party you’re arguing against in court is not so much your spouse. It’s mostly the _defensor vinculi_, an attorney appointed by the diocese whose job it is to argue against the application and in favour of upholding the marriage. Which does not alter the fact that the overwhelming majority of applications (80-90%, depending on the sources you consult) are ultimately granted. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2025, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interim-pontiff/1017537/35 "2025-05-01T14:32:40Z")
I’m not sure when you got married, but in 1987 when my non-Catholic (at the time) husband and I got married, I had to promise to do “all in my power” to raise any children Catholic but he promised nothing. He just had to be informed of my promise ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2025, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interim-pontiff/1017537/36 "2025-05-01T14:33:03Z")
> [@Schnitte](#): > > If this is an allusion to the doctrine of papal infallibility, then keep in mind that according to the teachings of the Catholic Church, that doctrine applies only where the pope speaks _ex cathedra_. Thank you for your in depth commentary. However, even though “infallibility” is in a limited state, it precludes having an interim pope. Otherwise, you are saying; "Hey, for the next three months, albeit as limited though it may be, this person will be infallible but, after that, he is a regular person again. The Vatican can handle the day to day chores until they go through the process and appoint a pope. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2025, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interim-pontiff/1017537/37 "2025-05-01T14:51:49Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > I’m not sure when you got married, but in 1987 when my non-Catholic (at the time) husband and I got married, I had to promise to do “all in my power” to raise any children Catholic but he promised nothing. He just had to be informed of my promise It was 1988 for me and you may well be remembering my story better than I am. I know for sure that she and I discussed our plans to raise Catholics / heathens respectively. Exactly what the dweeb said to each of us, or had us write down, is mostly lost in the mists of antiquity. I _think_ I remember having made a promise to an entity I did not respect in the slightest that I had no intention whatever of keeping or even considering. But maybe not. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2025, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interim-pontiff/1017537/38 "2025-05-01T14:57:53Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > Otherwise, you are saying; "Hey, for the next three months, albeit as limited though it may be, this person will be infallible but, after that, he is a regular person again. You mean like Joseph Ratzinger, temporarily Pope Benedict XVI? ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2025, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interim-pontiff/1017537/39 "2025-05-01T20:59:47Z")
> [@Schnitte](#): > > There is a lot of uncertainty around the question which past utterances of popes, exactly, were made in this manner, but the consensus view is that it’s very, very narrow, and most likely no _ex cathedra_ teachings have been made in a long time. Officially in 1950 by Pope Pius XX. Unofficially, Catholic conservatives will say by John Paul II in 1994. > **[The Most Recent Ex Cathedra Statement](https://www.catholic.com/qa/the-most-recent-ex-cathedra-statement)** > > This is an interesting question. Usually one would say that the last time was on November 1, 1950, when Pope Pius XII solemnly defined the dogma of the Assumpti... ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2025, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interim-pontiff/1017537/40 "2025-05-01T21:27:47Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > The pope isn’t a political leader or a CEO in the eyes of the Church. He is considered “God’s representative on earth as the Vicar of Christ”. The Pope isn’t just a political leader or CEO, but he is still those things. The Church is a very large organization, and it still needs someone running it. That doesn’t change in between papacies. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interim-pontiff/1017537.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interim-pontiff/1017537.md?page=3)