International Court of Justice /Sharon

[Alien]

@grienspace

You’re implication suggests complete encapsulation Avenger, which just isn’t the case for the Palestinians whose territory borders both Egypt and Jordon as well.

FYI, grienspace,

1. The wall is built on the West Bank. And the West Bank does not border Egypt at all. It’s Gaza who borders Egypt.

2. The wall, when finished, will indeed completely encircle the West Bank. You should have a look at the map with the wall. The wall is built both on the west side of the West Bank and on the east side, creating a corridor along the Jordanian border.

Obviously. the construction work is just getting started (step 1 should complete this summer), so we’ll see how this all turns out.

[Alien]

@grienspace

I guess I should say that I’m somewhat more than just inconvenienced because I as a Canadian do not have legal access to the American labour market or economic means to access your superior medical care and educational facilities in the USA.

Big deal.Most Palistinians are free now to develop their own destiny within the confines of their territory, unmolested by the Israeli government unless of course they insist on murdering Jews or act contrarily to Arafat.

Apparently, the wall will cut off more than 230,000 Palestinians from their surrounding areas. The population in the West Bank is 2.3 million, so we’re talking about more than 10 percent of the population who are affected, so far.

The court’s opinion is located at:
the opinion: http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/idocket/imwp/imwp_advisory_opinion
intro page: http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/idocket/imwp/imwpframe.htm

I’m quoting from a small portion of the opinion, which btw also deals with Israels claim that the wall is needed for security reasons:

That construction … have moreover imposed substantial restrictions on the freedom of movement of the inhabitants of the Occupied Palestinian Territory (with the exception of Israeli citizens and those assimilated thereto). Such restrictions are most marked in urban areas, such as the Qalqiliya enclave or the City of Jerusalem and its suburbs. They are aggravated by the fact that the access gates are few in number in certain sectors and opening hours appear to be restricted and unpredictably applied. For example, … “Qalqiliya, a city with a population of 40,000, is completely surrounded by the Wall and residents can only enter and leave through a single military checkpoint open from 7 a.m. to 7 p.m.”
…
There have also been serious repercussions for agricultural production, as is attested by a number of sources. … “an estimated 100,000 dunums [approximately 10,000 hectares] of the West Bank’s most fertile agricultural land, confiscated by the Israeli Occupation Forces, have been destroyed during the first phase of the wall construction, which involves the disappearance of vast amounts of property, notably private agricultural land and olive trees, wells, citrus grows and hothouses upon which tens of thousands of Palestinians rely for their survival”.
…
In a recent survey conducted by the World Food Programme, it is stated that the situation has aggravated food insecurity in the region, which reportedly numbers 25,000 new beneficiaries of food aid.

It has further led to increasing difficulties for the population concerned regarding access to health services, educational establishments and primary sources of water. … so far the Barrier has separated 30 localities from health services, 22 from schools, 8 from primary water sources and 3 from electricity networks." … In relation specifically to water resources, the Special Rapporteur on the Right to Food of the United Nations Commission on Human Rights observes that “By constructing the fence Israel will also effectively annex most of the western aquifer system (which provides 51 percent of the West Bank’s water resources).” (E/CN.4/2004/10/Add.2, 31 October 2003, para. 51.) Similarly, in regard to access to health services, it has been stated that, as a result of the enclosure of Qalqiliya, a United Nations hospital in that town has recorded a 40 per cent decrease in its caseload (report of the Secretary-General, para. 24).

At Qalqiliya, according to reports furnished to the United Nations, some 600 shops or businesses have shut down, and 6,000 to 8,000 people have already left the region (E/CN.4/2004/6, 8 September 2003, para. 10; E/CN.4/2004/10/Add.2, 31 October 2003, para. 51)

As for your claim that “the Palestinians are free now to develop their own destiny”, it’s kind of impossible to create an economically viable society without access to import/export, and ditto when it’s impossible to get a permission from the (Israeli) Civil Administration to build new businesses in many areas.

Currently, the West Bank only trades with Gaza, Israel and Jordan. GDP per capita is $800 (2002 estimate), down by 22 percent since 2001. The PA budget is 700 million, but economic aid is 2 billion. Unemployment rose from below 5% in the 1980s, to over 20% in 1995, according to the CIA fact book.

[The_Flying_Dutchman]

Alien, Here’s a map of the proposed security fence provided by the State of Israel earlier this month. There is no suggestion of encirclement and the route bears no resemblance whatsoever to your map that I can see.

Avoidance
Every effort has been made, to avoid including any Palestinian villages in the area of the Security Fence.
The Security Fence does not annex territories to the State of Israel, nor will it change the status of the residents of these areas.

Minimum Disruption
Minimum disruption to the daily life of the populations residing on both sides of the Security Fence will occur along its course in several forms:

Narrow agricultural passageways, dozens of which will be located along the route to enable farmers to continue cultivating their lands.
Passage for pedestrians and vehicles, at which inspections will take place to maintain security.
Crossing points, for transfer of goods across the central area and in the Jerusalem region.

[Alien]

@grienspace

Alien, Here’s a map of the proposed security fence provided by the State of Israel earlier this month. There is no suggestion of encirclement and the route bears no resemblance whatsoever to your map that I can see.

Your cite is an official Israeli military site, that should have made you think twice. The military is not the one making political decisions. What you see at their website is what they so far has been given orders to do. This project is divided into several phases.

A second wall to the east of the West Bank is indeed planned, and my cite is correct. Some furter cites after googling quickly:

From BBC: Q&A -What is the West Bank barrier?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3111159.stm

Work started in June 2002 and contractors have now completed about a quarter of the planned barrier: a long segment on the north-west edge of the West Bank; two sections either side of Jerusalem; and a section in the Jordan Valley.

From Evangelical Lutheran Church in America: Fact Sheet on the Separation Wall
http://www.elca.org/middleeast/wall/wall7.html

• Construction of the Wall, including land confiscation and the uprooting of trees, began in June 2002 west of Jenin.
• In September 2002, the first public map of the Wall-consisting of only a portion of the northern part -was made available to the public.
• In September 2002, the steering committee approved the inclusion of Rachel’s Tomb within the borders of the Wall.
• In mid-March 2003 the Israeli government announced to alter the Wall’s path to include Ariel and Immanuel settlements as a part of the settlers’ council proposal.
• The following week, Sharon declared the expansion of the Wall by building a wall within and along the entire Jordan Valley, bringing the settlements in this area under total Israeli control.

From MIFTAH (apparently a pro-Palestinian org, but text appears credible): Israel Accelerates Construction of the Wall and Settlements
http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId=2581&CategoryId=11

Apathetic to world opinion, Israel seems no longer concerned with hiding its intentions, as Israeli Finance Minister Benjamin Netanyahu stated, in a televised interview with Israel’s Channel Two, “at this moment, because we do not have an arrangement with the other side, we are making a unilateral arrangement.” He further went on to say that the fence along the Jordan Valley would fit Sharon’s concept of permanent Israeli control over the valley.

Israel disclosed this week that a security barrier being built along the West Bank would become a unilaterally imposed border annexing the strategic Jordan River Valley to Israel. A senior Israeli official said the plan for the wall that would cut the Jordan River Valley off from the rest of West Bank has been approved. Nineteen small illegal Israeli settlements dot the Jordan River Valley, a parched, hot strip of barren land punctuated by two main oases - the Palestinian towns of Jericho and Jiftliq.

My boldings.

I really shouldn’t have to hunt cites to debunk this - this is common knowledge.

[threemae]

@grienspace

Passage for pedestrians and vehicles, at which inspections will take place to maintain security.

Ah, brilliant, everything looks fine. I presume you won’t mind if we begin construction around your house immediately, then? You’re free to come and go anytime you want as long as you’ll wait a couple hours for the cue and it’s between 7 AM and 7 PM. Let’s not forget that Israel has routinely made it impossible for ambulances with critical patients to get to hospitals “after hours” due to checkpoints.

Let’s hope your in good cardiac health, old buddy.

[The_Flying_Dutchman]

Well threemae, I would much prefer that scenario than to wondering if one of my daughters might get blown to bits on a bus, maybe not tomorrow maybe not this week or this year even, but what about the next ten years ?

[Alien]

@grienspace

Well threemae, I would much prefer that scenario than to wondering if one of my daughters might get blown to bits on a bus, maybe not tomorrow maybe not this week or this year even, but what about the next ten years ?

Wich still doesn’t answer the question why the wall has to be built inside the West Bank, instead of along the temporary Green Line. A wall is a wall.

[Alien]

@threemae

Ah, brilliant, everything looks fine. I presume you won’t mind if we begin construction around your house immediately, then? You’re free to come and go anytime you want as long as you’ll wait a couple hours for the cue and it’s between 7 AM and 7 PM. Let’s not forget that Israel has routinely made it impossible for ambulances with critical patients to get to hospitals “after hours” due to checkpoints.

Let’s hope your in good cardiac health, old buddy.

He-he. You missed the key contradictive point though from that Military of Defence website, which is: “Narrow agricultural passageways, dozens of which will be located along the route to enable farmers to continue cultivating their lands”.

My bolding.

Now, the wall - the west wall that is - has an estimated length of 700 km (400-450 miles). Divide that by “dozens of passageways” and you’ll get a sense of how few farmers will actually have access to land on the other side. Of course, they could travel with their herd for “dozens of miles” to the nearest passageway.

[threemae]

@grienspace

Well threemae, I would much prefer that scenario than to wondering if one of my daughters might get blown to bits on a bus, maybe not tomorrow maybe not this week or this year even, but what about the next ten years ?

Really, you really care that much that your daughter not get blown up on a bus that you don’t care if she gets blown up by an Apache helicopter, or dies becasue her ambulance cannot get to a hospital, or she dies through starvation?

And this “temporary barrier” is going to be going down next October after it burns itself out on the late night talk show circuit? And it really will guaranty safety for Israel?

Hmmm… didn’t think so.

What I find infuriating about this whole debate is the way that you constantly minimize the intrusion of the wall as a mere, “inconvenience.” As if completely destroying what is left of the livlihood of someone is just a mere annoyance. What next, will you be joining in with Mr. Limbaugh decrying the overreaction of the American media to some harmless frat-pranks in Abu Gharib?

Still, defend the construction of this wall to protect illegal Israeli settlements and to make fertile land and water grabs as opposed to along the “Green Line.” I cannot quite buy that the sole goal of this project is security.