# International cricket rolling thread

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-cricket-rolling-thread/828205>\
**Category:** The Game Room\
**Tags:** cricket\
**Created:** [January 22, 2019, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-cricket-rolling-thread/828205 "2019-01-22T16:30:27Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 91

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**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\
**Post date:** [December 30, 2021, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-cricket-rolling-thread/828205/1803 "2021-12-30T11:01:39Z")

</div>

Looking forward to what @penultima_thule has to say, but my take on it is this:

T20 and ODI are, as mentioned, limited over matches. In First class and Test (red ball) the batting team can theoretically go on as long as they like - there’s nothing in the rules to stop a team batting for 5 days if they’re good enough and stupid enough to try. But although 5 days is stupid, piling up runs over 2 or even 2.5 days is a winning strategy. This makes a huge difference to what is needed and expected of batters.

In limited overs, the clock is always ticking. You only get so many chances to score and then you’re done. In 50-over games, teams are looking to score 350+ (top teams in ODIs have their sights set on 400+). Every over that goes by with a score of \<5 just adds pressure to the batters. In T20, with batters aiming for 200-ish, every _ball_ that isn’t scored off is wasted. When T20 started off, the mantra for batters was to go in, get themselves settled and then start scoring. Now batters know that they have to be scoring as soon as they go in.

The value of a wicket is different too. With limited overs, you won’t often see a team all out. Especially in T20, a batter who scores 30 of 15 balls and goes out has done more to help the team win than a batter who stays in scoring 50 off 70 balls. 50 over isn’t quite as intense but the logic still holds - the clock is ticking, there are other batters behind you, saving your wicket by not scoring runs doesn’t advance your cause.

The final difference is simply hte effect of time. OVer 4 or 5 days conditions change. Limited over batters won’t see much change in the pitch. But day 4 or 5 pitch is a very different environment from a day 1 pitch. Ditto, bowlers are always fresh in limited overs, not so in Tests.

The upshot is that in limited overs, the best time to score is now. Get bat on ball, get busy between the wickets or start mowing some sixes. In red-ball, the best time to score might well be this evening, or tomorrow - when the bowlers are tired, the ball is older, you’ve got your eye in and the pitch has calmed down. So batters who have adapted their game for limited overs will have the following characteristics:

1. Always looking to score
2. Unused to leaving the ball/knowing where their off-stump is.
3. Technically well-developed scoring shots, not so practised at defensive techniques
4. Unused to 4/5 day pitches
5. No experience of building an innings
6. Used to a very different risk/reward ratio
7. Plan to dominate bowlers by scoring off them, not by grinding them down.

There can be times in Tests when this approach is what’s needed - it can’t all be chanceless 2 runs per over stuff. But particularly for the top order, the above approach is completely unhelpful. An opening batter facing a fresh bowlers with hard new ball on an uncertain pitch is not there to score runs. Their job is to “see off the new ball” - to face enough deliveries that the shine comes off the ball and the bowlers get a little tired, a little frustrated. They shouldn’t even be thinking about their score for the first 10 overs, hard though that is. It’s balls faced that count. The runs will come if you’re still in to get them. When an opener gets a century, you will typically see that the first 50 runs came from 120-150 balls, the next 25 from 50 and the last 25 from 20-30. That scoring pattern just isn’t an option in limited overs, so when players trained and adapted to white ball cricket are asked to play red-ball cricket they have to adjust their game enormously.

For example, on of the main criticisms of England’s top order is that they play shots they don’t need to. A lot of early wickets fell to balls that were outside off stump and could easily have been left. Instead we see the impulsive swing, the nick, the catch. This is partly about the skill of judging the line of the ball accurately, but more about the mentality.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Teuton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/teuton/32/3864_2.png) [@Teuton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teuton)\
**Post date:** [December 30, 2021, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-cricket-rolling-thread/828205/1804 "2021-12-30T11:04:25Z")

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> [@Stanislaus](#):
>
> For example, on of the main criticisms of England’s top order is that they play shots they don’t need to. A lot of early wickets fell to balls that were outside off stump and could easily have been left. Instead we see the impulsive swing, the nick, the catch. This is partly about the skill of judging the line of the ball accurately, but more about the mentality.

This is one of the reasons I think it’s the coaching and leadership, not the players, who should be held to account for the failings. Not just of this Ashes tour, which has been calamitous enough, but of England’s batting order problems generally.

Joe Root is not a good captain, and he’s really only captain because he’s a good batsman.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\
**Post date:** [December 30, 2021, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-cricket-rolling-thread/828205/1805 "2021-12-30T11:06:59Z")

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> [@Teuton](#):
>
> This is one of the reasons I think it’s the coaching and leadership, not the players, who should be held to account for the failings. Not just of this Ashes tour, which has been calamitous enough, but of England’s batting order problems generally.

Yeah. You can go into the nets and practice leaving (and you should) but it’s match practice in tense conditions that will drill the mentality into you, and where in the set-up are people getting that?

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Teuton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/teuton/32/3864_2.png) [@Teuton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teuton)\
**Post date:** [December 30, 2021, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-cricket-rolling-thread/828205/1806 "2021-12-30T11:54:13Z")

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In other news, India have become the first Asian team to win at Centurion. They started the year winning at the Gabba, and now have taken SA down in the first test.

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**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\
**Post date:** [December 30, 2021, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-cricket-rolling-thread/828205/1807 "2021-12-30T12:36:53Z")

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I built the table below from cricinfo statsguru.

[![](https://i.ibb.co/zFX6mds/AUSENG-2010.jpg) ](https://i.ibb.co/zFX6mds/AUSENG-2010.jpg)

It shows AUS & ENG players (male) who have debuted since 2010 and have played the significant bulk of their Test runs batting #1 to #6. I have grouped them based on career average ie if \> 40.0 they are “Test”, if \> 30.0 they are “Handy” and below 30.0 are “Fringe”.

It doesn’t quite show you what you’d commonly think.

In the period ENG have played more Tests.  
28 AUS top order batters have debuted, ENG have 26.  
You’d probably think ENG would have tried vastly more players.

Of the “Test” standard bats, AUS have 7 (if you allow Kurt Patterson who beat up Sri Lanka then dropped off the radar) ENG have 1, Joe Root. Because his record vs AUS is not good, we don’t rate him as highly as he should be when you consider the totality of his career contribution.

Of the “Handy” standard bats both AUD & ENG have 6. AUS includes the talented but fragile Pucovski with a single Test. For ENG the appearance of Stokes is remarkable as he’s the only allrounder.

What I find remarkable is from these two blocks of equal player number is that ENG have got more than double the runs. Double the centuries, more than double the half centuries. But have a lower average. So they fail more often and hence haven’t kicked on to the Test standard 40.0+ average.

If you look at the “Fringe” group of those who haven’t really demonstrated they are/were of Test standard AUS have 15 vs ENG 19. Not that great a difference.

But again, for ENG they have contributed double the number of runs, more centuries and nearly 3 times the 50s at a slightly higher average. So again, they fail more frequently.

So my point would be; ENG produce, identify and select around the same number of batters with potential to be Test standard. But they are inconsistent and do not kick on to be establish Test standard. Why is this so?

FWIW, the 19 ENG Fringe players debuted since 2010 are:

 

| Country | Rank | Player | Span | Players | Tests | Aggregate | Average | 100s | 50s |
| --- | --- | --- | --- | --- | --- | --- | --- | --- | --- |
| ENG | Fringe | DP Sibley (ENG) | 2019-2021 | 1 | 22 | 1,042 | 28.9 | 2 | 5 |
| | | DJ Malan (ENG) | 2017-2021 | 1 | 20 | 1,032 | 29.5 | 1 | 9 |
| | | OJ Pope (ENG) | 2018-2021 | 1 | 22 | 1,013 | 29.8 | 1 | 6 |
| | | JL Denly (ENG) | 2019-2020 | 1 | 15 | 827 | 29.5 | 0 | 6 |
| | | KK Jennings (ENG) | 2016-2019 | 1 | 17 | 781 | 25.2 | 2 | 1 |
| | | NRD Compton (ENG) | 2012-2016 | 1 | 16 | 775 | 28.7 | 2 | 2 |
| | | Z Crawley (ENG) | 2019-2021 | 1 | 16 | 754 | 26.9 | 1 | 4 |
| | | AD Hales (ENG) | 2015-2016 | 1 | 11 | 573 | 27.3 | 0 | 5 |
| | | JM Vince (ENG) | 2016-2018 | 1 | 13 | 548 | 24.9 | 0 | 3 |
| | | MD Stoneman (ENG) | 2017-2018 | 1 | 11 | 526 | 27.7 | 0 | 5 |
| | | H Hameed (ENG) | 2016-2021 | 1 | 9 | 424 | 26.5 | 0 | 4 |
| | | DW Lawrence (ENG) | 2021-2021 | 1 | 8 | 354 | 27.2 | 0 | 3 |
| | | MA Carberry (ENG) | 2010-2014 | 1 | 6 | 345 | 28.8 | 0 | 1 |
| | | JWA Taylor (ENG) | 2012-2016 | 1 | 7 | 312 | 26.0 | 0 | 2 |
| | | A Lyth (ENG) | 2015-2015 | 1 | 7 | 265 | 20.4 | 1 | 0 |
| | | T Westley (ENG) | 2017-2017 | 1 | 5 | 193 | 24.1 | 0 | 1 |
| | | JJ Roy (ENG) | 2019-2019 | 1 | 5 | 187 | 18.7 | 0 | 1 |
| | | SR Patel (ENG) | 2012-2015 | 1 | 6 | 151 | 16.8 | 0 | 0 |
| | | BM Duckett (ENG) | | 1 | 4 | 110 | 15.7 | 0 | 1 |
| | Fringe Total | | | 19 | 220 | 10,212 | 26.8 | 10 | 59 |
| | | | | | | | | | |

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\
**Post date:** [December 30, 2021, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-cricket-rolling-thread/828205/1808 "2021-12-30T13:25:23Z")

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Thanks for all of the thoughtful replies. The baseball analogy is the one that spoke to me the most (no surprise there).

I also didn’t realize the condition of the ball is that important. How long do they last? Is there a set amount of time a ball is used? Is it different between red and white ball cricket?

Again, this is analogous to baseball except that nowadays the ball is replaced so often, it’s ceased to a factor except in the lowest leagues played by little kids (where it’s still replaced pretty often and they aren’t good enough to take full advantage anyway).

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**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\
**Post date:** [December 30, 2021, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-cricket-rolling-thread/828205/1809 "2021-12-30T13:48:16Z")

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> [@Zakalwe](#):
>
> Is batting really that much different that a competent white ball batter can’t switch to “grind mode”

I think the evolution of limited overs cricket has meant that now you can’t just flick the switch. When limited overs started and probably up to say 2000 the gap was minor. The same players played each form. Tactics were equivalent.

In long form cricket, a batter who scores 10 runs off 20 overs before nicking off might is pique redecorate the dressing room.  
In short form cricket scoring a boundary and then being bowled neck and crop going for a second would be a deemed as good team play.  
Cricket dressing room glassware is much less vulnerable during T20s.  
How do you even tell if a batter is out of form in a T20 after a run of low scores or are they just unlucky?

In the 1980s in an ODI a score of 100 off 30 overs with only a couple of wickets down was considered a good start. If chasing, having to score more than a run a ball was getting a big ask.

Last night in the BBL (T20) Hurricanes were 3/57 off 9 overs with their two best (Wade & Short) out cheap. They finished with 5/206 (McDermott run out off last ball for 127 off 65, Tim David 4x6s and 1x4 for 30 off 9 balls) which is 14/over for more than half the game.

Batters now prejudge their shots in the sense they will manufacture a way to target unpatrolled areas of the field. Ramp shots, lap shots and reverse sweeps allow this.

Fielding strategies are ball by ball especially in latter stages. The bowler/captain decide what delivery they want. They set a field to maximise the chances of a dot ball or single. It’s bluff and double bluff. The batter reads those cues and plans to either exploit if the delivery is not to the plan or if as planned, how to hit the delivery to unconventional areas.  
If the batter is facing somebody bowling at 150k who is trying to deliver a yorker outside off stump, to play a ramp shot over the keeper is not decided by reading the ball out of the hand.

The vast improvement in bats has helped significantly.  
Boundaries brought in 10m has helped significantly.  
Field restrictions have helped significantly.

Bowlers need to be able to bowl different deliveries every delivery. Consistency is not a virtue.  
6 deliveries on a length on 4th stump line being let through to the keeper is a classic Test over. A Test benchmark is 1/3rd of overs being maidens.  
6 awful, inconsistent, wide, short, ballooning, skidding deliveries which get a maiden in an T20 are considered the epitome of effective bowling.

The development of slow balls and off pace bowling.  
At one stage in the 80’s it was conventional thinking that ODIs would cause the permanent demise of spinners from the game. Now in T20s teams will play three spinners.

They play limited overs games on roads. There should be nothing in the surface for the bowler. If you ever see a ODI played on a Test Day1 pitch, let alone a greentop, the match is usually over fast as the team batting first gets squished and the second inning is a mopping up operation. It’s a very rare for a good game of limited overs cricket to occur if the team batting first get skittled cheaply.

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**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\
**Post date:** [December 30, 2021, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-cricket-rolling-thread/828205/1810 "2021-12-30T13:56:52Z")

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> [@Zakalwe](#):
>
> I also didn’t realize the condition of the ball is that important. How long do they last?

Usually a Test red cricket is replaced after 80 overs ie 460 deliveries of which almost all hit the surface and most are hit by the bat (which would mean in baseball parlance they’d be replaced every pitch).

They use two white balls in ODIs and one in T20s.  
A white ball gets discoloured and hard to see under lights pretty quickly.  
A red ball during the day is usually easy to pick ip for most of it’s playing life and then secondary as a training ball. White balls once the laquer is off and the colour gone are only suited to (field) hockey training.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\
**Post date:** [December 30, 2021, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-cricket-rolling-thread/828205/1811 "2021-12-30T14:23:57Z")

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In addition to the excellent replies you have gotten, red and white cricket balls have one major difference. Red balls are _dyed_ while white balls are _painted_. This means that white balls “lose their shine” a lot more quickly. To compensate for that a white ball is usually painted white a fairly thick coat.  
When facing any cricket ball it will swing in the air when it’s new (has more shine basically) and when it’s old (the roughed up ball swings more), but swings basically a negligible amount in between.  
Which means in white ball cricket, the ball will tend to swing a lot early on and then cease to do anything, and the innings will often be over before it’s roughed enough to swing as an old ball. While in red ball the ball will swing for many overs and often if the team is good enough they can minimise the “no swing” middle overs.  
Another thing is in white ball cricket, all bowlers have an allotted quota (4 or 10 overs depending on the type) while in Red ball the overs any bowler may are unlimited. In the former, you can simply “see off” a threatening bowler, ie okay him/her conservatively and defensively as they finish their quota and attack the less skilled ones.( Admittedly 2-3 overs is all the time Shaheen Afridi, Starc, Bumrah et al need to wreck your batting order).  
You can’t do that (or very well) in red ball cricket. A dangerous bowler has to be played.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\
**Post date:** [December 30, 2021, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-cricket-rolling-thread/828205/1812 "2021-12-30T16:11:35Z")

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I also blame Englands current problems on South Africa’s inability to continue to produce first rate batters for them to steal.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2021, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-cricket-rolling-thread/828205/1813 "2021-12-31T13:21:06Z")

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Well, this fella made the news a couple times in 2021:

> **[South Africa's Quinton de Kock quits test cricket at age 29](https://news.yahoo.com/south-africas-quinton-kock-quits-180635336.html)**
>
> In a statement, the 29-year-old de Kock said he made his decision in order to have more time to spend with his family. De Kock and his wife Sasha are expecting their first child in the coming days. “This is not a decision that I have come to very...

I guess it’s surprising he’d do it in the middle of a series, but perhaps it was a New Year resolution. You’d think he would have at least hinted it to someone.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2021, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-cricket-rolling-thread/828205/1814 "2021-12-31T13:54:14Z")

</div>

His baby is due “any day now” which may have focused his thinking.

Hopefully that really is the reason.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\
**Post date:** [January 2, 2022, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-cricket-rolling-thread/828205/1815 "2022-01-02T05:42:36Z")

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Bangladesh not lying down as expected against the fearsome World Test Champions.

Very good day, taking the last 5 Kiwi wickets for 70 and then putting up 175-2.

Probably going to go all pear shaped tomorrow, but one of the better days in Bangladesh Test cricket.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\
**Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-cricket-rolling-thread/828205/1816 "2022-01-03T10:40:09Z")

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> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#):
>
> Probably going to go all pear shaped tomorrow

But no! 401/6, a lead of 73.

The report contains phrases like “Each of the top 6 batters faced at least 50 balls”, “batted for 6 hours”, “struck 12 fours in his 244-ball knock”, “made a diligent 78, adding 104 for the second wicket” which would presumably read like fragments of a forgotten language to the England camp.

(And to a lesser extent to India, who chose to bat against SA and are 53/3 at lunch)

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Teuton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/teuton/32/3864_2.png) [@Teuton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teuton)\
**Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-cricket-rolling-thread/828205/1817 "2022-01-03T10:54:21Z")

</div>

> [@Stanislaus](#):
>
> But no! 401/6, a lead of 73.

Getting to 400 without anyone getting a ton is actually a bit of a feat in itself

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\
**Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-cricket-rolling-thread/828205/1818 "2022-01-03T10:58:04Z")

</div>

Watched a fair bit of this Test today via streaming.

Not one of cricket’s brighter days play but BAN steadily wore down a very good cricket team on their home deck. If a key aim of this tour is for BAN to establish their Test credentials, they have made significant strides.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\
**Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-cricket-rolling-thread/828205/1819 "2022-01-03T12:10:17Z")

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Muhammad Hafeez retires from internationals.

In the spring of 2003, Wasim, Waqar and Saeed Anwar retired and the first match when he was one of the new kids we all saw him and said “_seriously what in the actual hell”?_  
For nearly two decades all of Pakistan whenever he got selected was like, _that fucking guy again_?

The story of a talentless trudler, who somehow managed to be an integral part of multiple ICC title winning sides and went deep in other tournaments.  
Hope for us all.  
Fare thee well Professor.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Teuton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/teuton/32/3864_2.png) [@Teuton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teuton)\
**Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-cricket-rolling-thread/828205/1820 "2022-01-03T13:22:01Z")

</div>

> [@AK84](#):
>
> The story of a talentless trudler,

I mean, he did get a Test double ton.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\
**Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-cricket-rolling-thread/828205/1821 "2022-01-03T14:12:05Z")

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A very under appreciated fellow.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\
**Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-cricket-rolling-thread/828205/1822 "2022-01-03T14:58:37Z")

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Chiefly since he epitomised just how bare the cupboard was post 2003 till, err, like now.

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