# International Etiquette question -- QUICK! **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 7, 2009, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-etiquette-question-quick/492287 "2009-04-07T18:53:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-etiquette-question-quick/492287/1 "2009-04-07T18:53:41Z")
Please advise…do US presidents follow etiquette such as bowing to kings in other nations? If so, can anyone find a cite? I need this. And if there is something stating that all or most presidents follow these rules, can I have a cite for that too? Many thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-etiquette-question-quick/492287/2 "2009-04-07T19:07:52Z")
I very much doubt that they do bow … as one Head of State to another, it isn’t necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-etiquette-question-quick/492287/3 "2009-04-07T19:09:52Z")
The reason I ask is that my brother in law is absolutely freaked that Obama bowed to the Saudi king the other day. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/9WlqW6UCeaY/hqdefault.jpg "Obama Bows to Saudi King") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WlqW6UCeaY) He believes this has reduced us to a 3rd world country. :rolleyes: Is this The Big Suck Up or do we do these things as a show of friendship? ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-etiquette-question-quick/492287/4 "2009-04-07T19:12:41Z")
Your brother-in-law is absolutely right, of course. Ever since Obama bowed, we have been a vassal state of the KSA. We used to be a prefecture of Japan; you might remember that George Bush (the Elder) vomited in their Prime Minister’s lap. But then the French president (or someone) said “We are all Americans today” after 9-11, so for a while, the whole world was in suzerainty to us. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-etiquette-question-quick/492287/5 "2009-04-07T19:14:14Z")
So…anyone? If I could get a Regan or a Bush or someone doing the same thing, it would be most helpful. ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-etiquette-question-quick/492287/6 "2009-04-07T19:29:10Z")
A counterquestion: does a bow really carry that strong a connotation of obsequiousness (as opposed to politeness between social equals) in the US? If that’s the case Obama may be in trouble as some of his counterparts are so much shorter that he’s bound to take a small bow now and then. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-etiquette-question-quick/492287/7 "2009-04-07T19:29:10Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > So…anyone? If I could get a Regan or a Bush or someone doing the same thing, it would be most helpful. [W danced!](http://politicsandcriticalthinking.blogspot.com/2009/04/obama-bowed-bush-danced.html) Which, true, isn’t a bow, but among some of his most diehard supporters, it will send you to hell! And didn’t he grope Merkel at some summit last year? To be serious, protocol is a bit sui generis. Etiquette is the art of observing conventions and knowing how to bend the rules graciously–even more so when it is an incident to statecraft. Detractors will always find some minor quibble, real or imagined: this gift was wrong, he doesn’t wear a coat and tie in the Oval Office all the time, etc. etc. I won’t deny, however, that those detractors couldn’t benefit from a study of Emily Post or Letitia Baldridge nevertheless. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-etiquette-question-quick/492287/8 "2009-04-07T19:33:26Z")
> [@tschild](#): > > A counterquestion: does a bow really carry that strong a connotation of obsequiousness (as opposed to politeness between social equals) in the US? If that’s the case Obama may be in trouble as some of his counterparts are so much shorter that he’s bound to take a small bow now and then. Well, that was my next question. I don’t feel that this is a subservient thing. He did a little head bow (as per tradition) to the Queen of England and he did a full waist bow to the Saudi King. Big fuckin’ deal. The republicans are positively losing it! I really want to know how much significance this holds with the thinking minds of the 21st century. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-etiquette-question-quick/492287/9 "2009-04-07T19:56:08Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > [W danced!](http://politicsandcriticalthinking.blogspot.com/2009/04/obama-bowed-bush-danced.html) Which, true, isn’t a bow, but among some of his most diehard supporters, it will send you to hell! Wow, that is a terrible excuse for “dancing”. [Obama’s](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsWpvkLCvu4) no Michael Jackson, but at least he moves his hips! (As he rightfully points out, when it comes to presidential candidate dancing skills, it’s a low bar) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-etiquette-question-quick/492287/10 "2009-04-07T19:57:22Z")
If Obama had kneeled to anyone, that would be something to get bothered about, since kneeling is a sign of subservience. A bow, however, is merely a sign of respect. And while some people may get upset about the US (or a representative thereof) respecting any other country, they shouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-etiquette-question-quick/492287/11 "2009-04-07T19:57:58Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > So…anyone? If I could get a Regan or a Bush or someone doing the same thing, it would be most helpful. Will [this](http://www.slate.com/id/2117535/) work? (Link to a photo on [Slate.com](http://Slate.com) of George W. Bush holding hands with Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah.) ---
**Author:** ![Fantome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-etiquette-question-quick/492287/12 "2009-04-07T20:19:06Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Will [this](http://www.slate.com/id/2117535/) work? (Link to a photo on [Slate.com](http://Slate.com) of George W. Bush holding hands with Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah.) Nah. While it’s an example of Bush observing a foreign custom, both he and Abdullah are behaving equally. Obama bowed to the King but kings do not bow back. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-etiquette-question-quick/492287/13 "2009-04-07T20:20:16Z")
I think it would be obsequious if Obama bowed to the Saudi King in _this_ country. Even a head of state observes the etiquette of a nation when a guest in their nation within reason (i.e. if he gave Mahlia to be wife to the king’s grandson that would be a bit overboard). Certainly a visiting Saudi dignitary here would be expected to show respect to Sec. of State Hillary Clinton even though in their nation no woman could hold that position (or drive). Even over here, Bush and most other presidents refer to visiting monarchs as “Your Majesty” or “Your Highness” when as Americans there’s nothing about them intrinsically more majestic or high than anyone else. It’s diplomacy, nothing more. I wonder if your brother-in-law would be as irritated if a U.S. president (especially one who isn’t Catholic [i.e. not JFK]) knelt before the Pope at the Vatican. Or if he bowed to a Japanese emperor. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-etiquette-question-quick/492287/14 "2009-04-07T20:20:59Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Will [this](http://www.slate.com/id/2117535/) work? (Link to a photo on [Slate.com](http://Slate.com) of George W. Bush holding hands with Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah.) Thanks, Dewey, but I don’t think the hand-wavers will think that’s subserviant. I did find ths quote from Gloria Starr, who the Pentagon hires to teach this stuff to those who need it: > [@](#): > > “(The bow) in no way diminishes the ranking of the President or indicates the greater strength of [the king],” Gloria Starr told the paper. “I bowed, wore the attire, ate the figs as a sign of respect when I was in Saudi. I applaud the President for showing this courtesy.” I’m hoping this is enough to get the pitchforks back in the barn and douse the torches. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-etiquette-question-quick/492287/15 "2009-04-07T20:21:44Z")
> [@Fantome](#): > > Obama bowed to the King but kings do not bow back. That’s a faulty analogy: nobody bows to the US president. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-etiquette-question-quick/492287/16 "2009-04-07T20:27:54Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > I think it would be obsequious if Obama bowed to the Saudi King in _this_ country. Even a head of state observes the etiquette of a nation when a guest in their nation within reason (i.e. if he gave Mahlia to be wife to the king’s grandson that would be a bit overboard). Certainly a visiting Saudi dignitary here would be expected to show respect to Sec. of State Hillary Clinton even though in their nation no woman could hold that position (or drive). > > I wonder if your brother-in-law would be as irritated if a U.S. president (especially one who isn’t Catholic [i.e. not JFK]) knelt before the Pope at the Vatican. Hard to say. He’s one of those guys who doesn’t necessarily believe in god but believes that we are a christian nation. He’s the guy who writes all those large font multi-colored rants that find their way to your inbox. It’s his country right or wrong (except when a black democrat is in the white house, of course) and a flag-waver and a rich guy who lost half his fortune. The level of hysteria has reached fever pitch. He considers this a sign of weakness, and evidently most everyone on the right does, too (based on a quick google). I guess we’re doomed. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-etiquette-question-quick/492287/17 "2009-04-07T20:32:04Z")
There was a case some years back where an American diplomat curtsied to the Queen, and was fairly heavily criticized for it. I can’t recall if that was in the Carter, Reagan, Bush, or Clinton administrations. ---
**Author:** ![Fantome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-etiquette-question-quick/492287/18 "2009-04-07T20:34:50Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > That’s a faulty analogy: nobody bows to the US president. I wasn’t giving an analogy. **Kalhoun** asked if he could get an example of a Regan or a Bush or someone doing the same thing. **Dewey Finn** asked if a pic of GWB holding hands with Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah would do. I answered that it wouldn’t and my reasoning is that the latter is an example of both behaving equally and the former is an example which shows what could be construed by some as subservience. While adhering to some other nation’s customs may be seen by some as subservience, I doubt it’s the type of example the OP was looking for. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-etiquette-question-quick/492287/19 "2009-04-07T22:08:03Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > There was a case some years back where an American diplomat curtsied to the Queen, and was fairly heavily criticized for it. I can’t recall if that was in the Carter, Reagan, Bush, or Clinton administrations. Reagan’s protocol officer, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-etiquette-question-quick/492287/20 "2009-04-07T23:06:37Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Hard to say. He’s one of those guys who doesn’t necessarily believe in god but believes that we are a christian nation. He’s the guy who writes all those large font multi-colored rants that find their way to your inbox. [etc.]. OMG… your brother-in-law is my sister!😉 I’m guessing that like my sister you can also send him a Snopes for every one of the forwarded rants and it’ll never occur to him to check Snopes next time he gets one of those emails. Not that he believed Snopes the first time. Burns by butt. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-etiquette-question-quick/492287.md?page=2)