# International Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [December 1, 2010, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553 "2010-12-01T16:47:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Natlaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a88e57/32.png) [@Natlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Natlaw)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/461 "2010-12-17T18:36:27Z")
> [@Scuba\_Ben](#): > > **Cookies** , my NZD 0.05 on your Night power: > > You have an ability to break a tie. Otherwise your vote doesn’t mean anything – London doesn’t even see it until their Dusk. I suggest you hold your Night vote until late in the Night. As to whether to use it or not, that depends on your read of the vote leaders. Did I miss that Cookies vote doesn’t count unless is a tie? Every vote counts and I would found Cookies not voting to be anti-town: it takes away opportunity to analyze an extra vote. Cookies, I assume you can change your action until the deadline (basicly unvote and vote someone else)? ---
**Author:** ![Natlaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a88e57/32.png) [@Natlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Natlaw)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/462 "2010-12-17T18:38:37Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > Notice the total absence of color. Now, his is the only ‘completely vanilla’ claim so far (i.e. no power and no travel), so that may explain it…or it may have been edited. I know that some folks dislike arguments centered on the language in PMs, but it did stick out at me. I assume you missed [my claim](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13261206&postcount=437)? ---
**Author:** ![Natlaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a88e57/32.png) [@Natlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Natlaw)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/463 "2010-12-17T18:43:18Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > Vote Natlaw > > for trying to pull specific travel plans from players. I’m not sure that’s a wise move because it might help scum. How? Plans can changed and as far as I know all travel is public anyway. What extra benefit does scum get from this info? Seems to me that knowing that they can travel is enough and that was already public for Plankton and Idle. Scum would either kill them to prevent them from traveling or not kill in hope they will travel (ignoring any other possible power roles they might have). ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/464 "2010-12-17T19:06:58Z")
> [@Natlaw](#): > > I assume you missed [my claim](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13261206&postcount=437)? Wow. I got your vote for me, but I missed your claim. I have updated the spreadsheet. This gives us locally four claims of roles, three claims of unable to travel, and two proven travel abilities. For this purpose, I include **Natlaw** ’s claim of VT and **Idle Thoughts** ’s claim of “vanilla traveling town” as claims of roles. (Claiming VT is still claiming a role.) I know my own position, of course. So there’s six left for me to assess Today. And I’m not going to get in a rigorous analysis before our Dusk. Meanwhile, to reply to **Natlaw** on my suggestion to **Cookies** : Eir vote does count, yes, but I should have said it doesn’t have a meaningful effect. As shown in UK Day 1A, \*\*Cookies \*\*vote created a tie, but eir vote was recorded at Dusk. Under the tiebreaker rules, eir vote was the last one cast, so eir candidate was NOT arrested. Hence, **Cookies** ’s vote only makes a difference to break a tie. Still, a point remains that **Cookies** does get an extra vote, that e ought to justify in eir Day phase. {BTW: I use Spivak pronouns, which are gender neutral. (He/she/e; him/her/eir.) This simplifies the issue of determining people’s gender. I hope it clarifies more than it confuses.} ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/465 "2010-12-17T19:07:34Z")
> [@Natlaw](#): > > I assume you missed [my claim](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13261206&postcount=437)? Apparently I did miss it. ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/466 "2010-12-17T19:12:31Z")
After a little further thought and vote history checking: **Mahaloth** first voted for **peeker** , who has claimed Twin Brother (mason). E then voted for **Suburban Plankton** , changed eir mind, and voted for **Natlaw**. Moreover, Natlaw claimed VT in #437, and Mahaloth voted for em AFTER that in #453. **unvote USCDiver** **vote Mahaloth** **Mahaloth** , care to explain why you voted Natlaw after eir claim? ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/467 "2010-12-17T19:17:47Z")
> [@Scuba\_Ben](#): > > {BTW: I use Spivak pronouns, which are gender neutral. (He/she/e; him/her/eir.) This simplifies the issue of determining people’s gender. I hope it clarifies more than it confuses.} Thank you…it was starting to drive me crazy…I was wondering if you had some sort of strange keyboard malfunction ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/468 "2010-12-17T19:19:53Z")
You’re mostly right. It’s not a keyboard malfunction – it’s evidence of a misspent few years. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/469 "2010-12-17T19:48:40Z")
> [@Scuba\_Ben](#): > > After a little further thought and vote history checking: > > **Mahaloth** first voted for **peeker** , who has claimed Twin Brother (mason). E then voted for **Suburban Plankton** , changed eir mind, and voted for **Natlaw**. Moreover, Natlaw claimed VT in #437, and Mahaloth voted for em AFTER that in #453. > > **unvote USCDiver** > **vote Mahaloth** > > **Mahaloth** , care to explain why you voted Natlaw after eir claim? First, I admit to skimming maybe speed reading is better. Work has been hell today. Second, I wanted to note this post. I saw Mahaloth’s vote and I thought it was odd that he voted after the claim. But I don’t think it is enough to vote Mahaloth for now. First, I see Mahaloth’s (originally suburban’s in vote at least if I’m not mistaken) point, though I don’t completely agree with it. it’s a sort of fishing case, I suppose. Not always the strongest, but it is our first Day, so it’s understandable. Second, Natlaw did claim Vanilla, not a powerful claim. It was quite a speedy bandwagon. Natlaw and Normal have made the point tht Scuba’s comment that a Vanilla claim is weak. I’m going to go with my gut here and **Vote: Scuba Ben** * * * it just seems like his action, while more subtle, is also more likely to have Scum motivations behind it. It’s almost a desire to cast suspicion on anyone who claims Vanilla. I don’t see a Town reason for making such a case. ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/470 "2010-12-17T20:09:52Z")
**special ed** : You concur with **Natlaw** and **Normal Phase** on my comment that a VT claim is weak, AND you said: > [@](#): > > Second, Natlaw did claim Vanilla, not a powerful claim. What makes my comment suspicious and yours not? ---
**Author:** ![Natlaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a88e57/32.png) [@Natlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Natlaw)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/471 "2010-12-17T20:13:38Z")
> [@Scuba\_Ben](#): > > Meanwhile, to reply to **Natlaw** on my suggestion to **Cookies** : Eir vote does count, yes, but I should have said it doesn’t have a meaningful effect. As shown in UK Day 1A, \*\*Cookies \*\*vote created a tie, but eir vote was recorded at Dusk. Under the tiebreaker rules, eir vote was the last one cast, so eir candidate was NOT arrested. Hence, **Cookies** ’s vote only makes a difference to break a tie. > > Still, a point remains that **Cookies** does get an extra vote, that e ought to justify in eir Day phase. You can say that of any single vote of a pile so I don’t see how that makes it any special in that regard. That the vote isn’t revealed until the final vote is more tricky. > [@](#): > > {BTW: I use Spivak pronouns, which are gender neutral } /oog It doesn’t simplify the issue, it side-steps it. It reads really w_eir_d to me… > [@](#): > > What makes my comment suspicious and yours not? Actually you commented that a vanilla claim is weak so why is it such a big deal to that **Mahaloth** s vote after it? ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/472 "2010-12-17T20:16:27Z")
> [@Natlaw](#): > > Actually you commented that a vanilla claim is weak so why is it such a big deal to that **Mahaloth** s vote after it? Because **Mahaloth** made pretty much the same observation. If it’s suspicious for one of us to observe that a VT claim is weak (my phrasing) or not powerful (eir phrasing), it’s suspicious for both of us. ---
**Author:** ![Natlaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a88e57/32.png) [@Natlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Natlaw)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/473 "2010-12-17T20:23:57Z")
You do mean Ed right? I don’t see where **Mahaloth** mentions it and your post #466 you seem to find it pretty significant that Mahaloth doesn’t mention my claim but still votes me? ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/474 "2010-12-17T20:26:15Z")
> [@Natlaw](#): > > You do mean Ed right? I don’t see where **Mahaloth** mentions it and your post #466 you seem to find it pretty significant that Mahaloth doesn’t mention my claim but still votes me? :smack::smack::smack: You’re right. I even got the name right in #470. I goofed in #472. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/475 "2010-12-17T20:26:41Z")
> [@Scuba\_Ben](#): > > **Mahaloth** , care to explain why you voted Natlaw after eir claim? Uh, it’s a vanilla claim. Is that supposed to have some kind of powerful effect on whether I think natlaw is scum or not? I don’t get why you think it’s a big deal. I was on Suburban for not moving his vote after peek’s claim, but peek’s claim is not a vanilla claim and could be potentially confirmed by Astral. I just don’t get your point. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/476 "2010-12-17T20:29:40Z")
I have a few questions for **Scuba\_Ben** From just a few posts ago… > [@Scuba\_Ben](#): > > Okay, I’m caught up now. > > Ed and I are the only ones who haven’t placed any votes yet toDay, if I’ve got my spreadsheet up to date. For me, it’s because I was away from boards for 48 hours. > > I would like to hear from **Natlaw** defending eir probing for travel plans. Travel is one of the ways the two cities interact. > > I think **USCDiver** ’s vote in #434 is incredibly weak, and almost “me-too”. So for now: > > **vote USCDiver** Why \*\*USCDiver \*\*instead of **Cookies** , who made basically the same argument in Post #433? Going back to Morning… > [@Scuba\_Ben](#): > > So for the record: **Idle Thoughts** in post #89 said e began the game in transit. **Suburban Plankton** , did you receive the same (or a similar) statement, or did you start in-transit as a pre-game option? This is the first suggestion that I had an ‘pre-game travel option’, which in turn seems to have led to \*\*peeker’s \*\*suspicion of me and all the hilarity that followed. Why would you think that I got a ‘pre-game option’ if nobody else did? From the same post… > [@](#): > > Less for the record and more for analysis: I observe that everybody who started round 1A (NZ’s starting Night) in NZ was still here in the morning; nobody is presently in transit. This could be game balance, as half the players are here toDay. Or it could be people had a travel option but did not exercise that option. I blame the Mod. and a bit later on… > [@Scuba\_Ben](#): > > I _DO_ feel the need to blame sach. I just didn’t think it would help to do so in the game thread. Well, you _did_ blame him in the game thread…and what exactly are you blaming him for, anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/477 "2010-12-17T20:30:46Z")
Separate thought. **peekercpa** was the early vote leader, and claimed Twin Brother (mason) under pressure. **Natlaw** was the later vote leader, and claimed VT under pressure. **Suburban Plankton** drew a few votes, but was never under pressure, so didn’t need to claim. A late-Day effort is building against me. There’s just over a half hour left toDay here in kiwiville. If you’ve all got cases against me (or anybody else, for that matter), please allow time for another claim under pressure. AOP @ Mahaloth: ISTM that VT is not testable by action. If I’m wrong about the importance (or non importance) of a VT claim, it wouldn’t be the first thing in this game about MafiaScum play that I’m wrong about. ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/478 "2010-12-17T20:34:26Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > I have a few questions for **Scuba\_Ben** From just a few posts ago… > > Why \*\*USCDiver \*\*instead of **Cookies** , who made basically the same argument in Post #433? Because **Cookies** had already claimed Nocturnal Hacker (and pro-Town) in #311. So there’s no reason Today to vote for **Cookies**. > [@](#): > > Going back to Morning… > > This is the first suggestion that I had an ‘pre-game travel option’, which in turn seems to have led to \*\*peeker’s \*\*suspicion of me and all the hilarity that followed. Why would you think that I got a ‘pre-game option’ if nobody else did? I didn’t think you did. I just wanted it on the record. > [@](#): > > From the same post… > and a bit later on… > Well, you _did_ blame him in the game thread…and what exactly are you blaming him for, anyway? :smack::smack::smack::smack: I can’t keep track of my own posts. I’m blaming the Mod for having a game set-up where we have to, gosh, reason things out. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/479 "2010-12-17T20:34:29Z")
> [@Natlaw](#): > > I didn’t single out some random travellers - I asked the question of the publicly revealed travelers (Pleonasts already revealed his forced travel schedule). And yes, I could have talked travel strategy in general but with known travelers around I wanted to hear from them _first_ so I didn’t expand on it myself and asked them directly. I didn’t say random, I said only some. There is a group of people who all know which side of the line that Ed and Suburban fall on, and it isn’t Town. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/480 "2010-12-17T20:40:48Z")
I mean Idle and Suburban. :smack: I’ll get it straight one of these days. Unofficial lazy vote count: Natlaw: 5 Scuba: 3 Suburban: 1 USCDiver: 1 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553.md?page=25)