# International Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [December 1, 2010, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553 "2010-12-01T16:47:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 33
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/641 "2010-12-23T14:29:34Z")
> [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](#): > > Missing sentence : “At the same time, there are a lot of deaths taking place between participation cycles. I understand the desire to divulge what results he has before he gets killed.” Exactly. Sach said this is a fast game, so I figured two results is an OK time to claim. Normally, I’d like to get 3 good results(especially if one is a scum) before claiming. I’m a weak cop, I think. I only learn citizenship, not powers, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/642 "2010-12-23T14:36:11Z")
> [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](#): > > Just to fast-forward a bit (ok, a lot since there isn’t even a vote on him at this point), if we were to end up lynching Mahaloth and we’re wrong, we wouldn’t get a whole lot of confirmed information. Shadow and Rysto are either both town, or one of them is a Scum Godfather. Yep. Honestly, though, I wouldn’t lynched a claimed investigator. I mean, that would be stupid anyway. > [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > I’m not casting a vote for you at the moment because I want to consider the implications of your claim first, but you’re smelling pretty Scummy to me right now. I’m feeling scummy, even after claiming investigator? Whatever. I think you are playing the most scummy game on our side of the planet right now. You ping my radar, so I vote for you. ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/643 "2010-12-23T14:41:25Z")
That’s a powerful claim, **Mahaloth** , as the role makes good use of the two-city mechanic. **Cookies** , good point in #639. I don’t expect you to commit to a vote during our Day. I only ask that you share your analysis of the London residents. You’re a participant in their Day, you just can’t discuss at the same time as them. For my analysis, I have problems with **NAF1138**. I’ll pull together my case against em, even though some of the Londoners said much the same things late last Night. And I’m well aware that it’s not useful to vote for someone in the other city if we don’t know if they can travel to this city. As for **Pleo** , for now I’m willing to accept eir claim. I originally said “trust,” but my trust at present is limited to our claimed Twin, our claimed Cop, and **Cookies** ’s claimed Night vote. I’ll later go over what **Natlaw** laid out against me yesterDay and do my best to address the issues. Someone back in London (I think it was Shadow) classified Natlaw’s vote on me as a null-tell; I’ll respect that and skip the round of “Scum voted for me – I MUST be Town!” Here’s my scorecard of claims in Wellington: **Idle Thoughts** - discretionary traveler **Cookies** - nocturnal hacker (Night vote in London) **Mahaloth** - London cop **Pleo** - compulsory traveler **peeker** - twin (mason) That gives us five people in Wellington without any claims, of which I am one. I kept **Suburban Plankton** off my list, as there hasn’t been any specific claim that I recall, just the fact that e started the game in flight. (How was the A380 anyhow?) So while I prepare my analysis on NAF and review the issues towards me, I’ll also work on the other four people here in Wellington. ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/644 "2010-12-23T14:44:11Z")
And sniped under my write-up, **Mahaloth** picks up on **Suburban Plankton** ’s #636, to wit: Mahaloth smells Scummy to Plank, yet Mahaloth claims cop. How often does Scum false-claim Cop? (Oh right, Giraffe claimed vig / cop-on-fail in Raffer Batman. He lied.) ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/645 "2010-12-23T14:53:37Z")
NAF #576: "Shadow, have you claimed anything yet? You are about to swing I think, do you plan to claim before the Day is done?" Shadow claimed VT in #244. NAF #591: "Also, have we talked about Pleo’s travel plans yet at all? I don’t recall seeing any discussion of such. " Pleo claimed in #87 that e MUST travel every third half-Day: Active Day, inactive Night, travel phase, rinse & repeat. NAF #593: Promotes London travelers go to Wellington “so we can get rid of the London community quick-ish?” Also seeks a mass claim in London. Countered by Romanic #596. NAF #598 clarifies e’s asking about Pleo’s current trip. And notes that NAF emself had discussed the compulsory-travel claim on London Day 1. Romanic #602 points out the issues with NAF forgetting Pleo must travel. Supported by Pleo in #605. NAF #606 asks about Pleo’s current travel. Again, Pleo MUST travel. Accordingly: **Vote NAF1138** (Which I intend to change later, I just want to put my vote where my mouth is.) ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/646 "2010-12-23T16:13:46Z")
Okay, here’s **Natlaw** ’s case on me: > [@Natlaw](#): > > Since Day end is close I might as well claim now: > {{Claims VT, NZ, non-travel}} > I’m actual in Europe so I’ll be back from work before Dusk to review it but for now I’ll > **Vote Scuba\_Ben** > Based on the ‘vanilla is a weak claim’ comment. I don’t think Suburban Plankton keeping a vote on peeker for a bit is something scum would do and I don’t have any other leads to vote for. Bleached. So Natlaw votes me for saying that a VT claim is a weak claim in the same post as he claims VT. And the VT claim turned out to be false. **Normal Phase** votes me in #443 for the same reason. Would you like to revisit that, NP? Later, in #469 **special ed** joins the train. But e has follow up for me to address: > [@special\_ed](#): > > it just seems like his action, while more subtle, is also more likely to have Scum motivations behind it. It’s almost a desire to cast suspicion on anyone who claims Vanilla. I don’t see a Town reason for making such a case. For me, it was partly an observation. Power role claims, including traveling ability, can be tested. VT can only be verified through investigation, and good old post analysis. I don’t intend to suspect anyone who claims VT solely for that claim – I’m aware that almost all the time, a plain Townie will claim plain Townie. (OTTOMH, the one exception I saw to that was where someone, possibly Day 2 in Werewolf, false-claimed Scum in a poorly executed gambit.) OTOH, it seems to me that VT is a good claim for Scum, as a power role claim will be asked to explain what they’ve done with their power and why they did so. Hope this helps. I’m very not comfortable with the cases on **Pleonast** ; I’ll have to go and review them. I will make this observation: Half of Wellington’s current population has claimed a role. I recommend that we consider a Day 3 or Day 4 mass claim in Wellington, as we may wind up with everybody claiming by then at the rate we’re going. Side note / OOG: Over the weekend, I’ll review Yesterday’s successful case on **Natlaw**. I didn’t read em as Scummy, so I’ll pay attention to people’s analysis. After this game, I would appreciate help on improving my analysis skills. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/647 "2010-12-23T17:15:03Z")
> [@](#): > > Normal Phase votes me in #443 for the same reason. Would you like to revisit that, NP? I have – I’m not voting for you. 🙂 Somebody in London did an analysis of either me or Special Ed as likely scum based on Natlaw voting. I’m happy to be put under that microscope if it gets attention on Special Ed as well, but I don’t have time to do it. About Mahaloth’s claim, it’s slightly stronger and more useful than he says, in that Rysto can presumably confirm or deny in the next day that he ONLY has UK citizenship (that he’s not dual. SF already claimed UK vanilla, IIRC). In other words, this is not a completely trivial determination for scum – unless Rysto and Mahaloth are both scum, Mahaloth must indeed have access to citizenship investigations. And yes I know that Giraffe just got away with a fake investigator claim for a few days, but this is not the same situation. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/648 "2010-12-23T17:22:11Z")
**unvote** **vote: Suburban Plankton** Beginning to become too much of a pattern of pushing on strong claims. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/649 "2010-12-23T19:43:51Z")
> [@Scuba\_Ben](#): > > So while I prepare my analysis on NAF and review the issues towards me, I’ll also work on the other four people here in Wellington. This almost makes it sound like you are not going to look at anyone who has claimed anything (even if it is just the ability to travel) ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/650 "2010-12-23T19:49:03Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > **unvote** > **vote: Suburban Plankton** > > Beginning to become too much of a pattern of pushing on strong claims. I’m agreeing with you. Not ready to vote yet. I need to spend some time looking back at the game so far. If I’m reading the schedule correctly, we have until Tuesday the 28th for this Day. I have family obligations that will be occupying me today and tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2010, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/651 "2010-12-23T22:08:42Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > **unvote** > **vote: Suburban Plankton** > > Beginning to become too much of a pattern of pushing on strong claims. What sort of pattern are you seeing? My vote on \*\*peeker \*\*was essentially simultaneous with his claim, and I never ‘pushed’ him at all; I simply waited a bit before moving my vote elsewhere. That may have been petty and stupid, but that does not imply Scum, it just implies petty and stupid. And in the absence of his claim, I think my argument against \*\*Mahaloth \*\*is a strong one. If he hadn’t claimed, I would have gladly placed a vote on him and felt good about it. But he did claim, and since I couldn’t simply ignore that fact, I didn’t vote for him. After giving it some thought, I find myself reluctantly inclined to believe him. I still don’t like his play, but I have to admit at this point that he’s more likely to be Town. I’ll be offline the rest of the day entertaining guests, and my participation is likely to be spotty until Sunday. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/652 "2010-12-24T23:06:27Z")
no way in the world am i revisiting idle’s christmas thread. but i hope everyone has a wonderful christmas (or your reason for celebration, if any). take care folks i’ll catch you in a couple of days. ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2010, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/653 "2010-12-27T14:36:47Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > This almost makes it sound like you are not going to look at anyone who has claimed anything (even if it is just the ability to travel) General point, you’re mostly right. It’s a way of reducing the information overload and accommodating that I’m on the job a half day today (then as noted AFK). Specific point, I’m not ruling out **Plankton**. (Though there’s plenty of people voting for em. {Him? Her? You see why I prefer Spivak pronouns.}) ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2010, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/654 "2010-12-27T14:57:37Z")
Here’s my rough sense on the unclaimed people in Wellington: **Scuba Ben** - Me. Enough said. **USC Diver** - no read. Off the top of my head I’m not immediately aware of him having said much. This could simply be what I have or have not noticed. **special ed** - No read. This is definitely my difficulty at reading people in MafiaScum. **Normal Phase** - No read. Much like ed, this is my problem. **Suburban Plankton** - Plankton was the first person to vote for **Natlaw**. Plankton has been cagey about eir travel ability, which I consider a null tell Today. However, reviewing the last page or so, I found this: > [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > Regarding activities back in London: > > I noted in Post 452 that **ShadowFacts** ’ claim was entirely devoid of color, and wondered if that could be because he had edited it. \*\*Natlaw \*\*later pointed out that his own claim was also completely devoid of color. > > Of course, we now know that Natlaw’s claim was devoid of color because it was fake. As part of the rules, stated as far back as post #1, the standard plain Town role is public information. So the colorless claim is not meaningful - it could be honest or it could be copied from the public info. I consider that a sufficient reason for me to vote for Plankton Today. I’ll do my best to reassess as time permits this week. **Unvote NAF1138** **Vote Suburban Plankton** ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2010, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/655 "2010-12-27T17:00:26Z")
> [@Scuba\_Ben](#): > > General point, you’re mostly right. It’s a way of reducing the information overload and accommodating that I’m on the job a half day today (then as noted AFK). > > Specific point, I’m not ruling out **Plankton**. (Though there’s plenty of people voting for em. {Him? Her? You see why I prefer Spivak pronouns.}) “Plenty of people”? By my count, there were exactly 2 people voting for me at that point. Out of a voting block of 10. That isn’t exactly “plenty”. > [@Scuba\_Ben](#): > > **Suburban Plankton** - Plankton was the first person to vote for **Natlaw**. Plankton has been cagey about eir travel ability, which I consider a null tell Today. > > However, reviewing the last page or so, I found this:As part of the rules, stated as far back as post #1, the standard plain Town role is public information. So the colorless claim is not meaningful - it could be honest or it could be copied from the public info. > > I consider that a sufficient reason for me to vote for Plankton Today. I’ll do my best to reassess as time permits this week. > > **Unvote NAF1138** > **Vote Suburban Plankton** I’m not exactly sure what your argument against me is. I pointed out that \*\*Natlaw’s \*\*‘colorless’ claim was in fact fake, and wondered if that might suggest that the only other ‘colorless’ claim we have seen might also be fake. As you point out, a colorless claim could be honest, or it could be copied from the sample (i.e. “fake”). I thought it was odd that anyone would be given a role that had no color whatsoever attached to it, and I said so. Maybe I was wrong, but I see the problem with voicing my suspicions. And I notice now, as I take another look at the Sample Roles, that \*\*Idle’s \*\*PM matches the sample “Dual Citizen” exactly as well. So it looks like any suspicion of \*\*ShadowFacts \*\*based on his PM were unfounded, since ‘colorless roles’ don’t seem to be as rare as I originally thought. So my line of thinking looks like it was wrong, but I still don’t see how making a bad assumption adds up to being Scum. Can you tell me exactly what I did that you find Scummy? **Mahaloth** , I’ll ask the same question of you, since the only thing I’ve done that you pointed out as suspicious was my lingering vote on \*\*peeker \*\*Yesterday. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/656 "2010-12-27T18:04:28Z")
T36:00 post# 612 Pleonast(1): [del]Normal Phase(620-648)[/del] peekercpa(624) Suburban Plankton(4): Idle Thoughts(627) Mahaloth(631) Normal Phase(648) Scuba\_Ben(654) NAF1138(0): [del]Scuba\_Ben(645-654)[/del] ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2010, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/657 "2010-12-27T18:12:51Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > “Plenty of people”? By my count, there were exactly 2 people voting for me at that point. Out of a voting block of 10. That isn’t exactly “plenty”. I completely missed \*\*Idle’s \*\*vote in Post 627 when I posted this. So there were actually 3 votes on me, which still isn’t exactly “plenty of people”, so my point still stands. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2010, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/658 "2010-12-27T18:26:41Z")
Speaking of Idle’s vote… > [@Idle\_Thoughts](#): > > Sorry about not having made it back in time to remove my vote from Peeker, I have been having digestive problems that have been making me sick. I’m still not out of the woods yet, but I’m going to do my best to stay in the game. I might have to sub out, though, if it gets too much (like having to go to the hospital). > > ToDay, **Vote Suburban Plankton** > > I think he’s just a little scummier-looking than Pleo, in my opinion. For one, being willing to lynch a claimed mason yesterDay (and, unlike me, being willing to keep his vote on peek AFTER he saw the claim)…then, seemingly flip flopping and unvoting after he saw how much heat it got him. > Plus all that evasiveness over not mentioning if he’s going to travel again. Seems to me that would be an answer you’d give if you knew you’d probably be traveling again, eventually, for some needed reason. > > It’s not too strong a case, obviously, but I’m only looking for the person I think is most suspicious. Umm…you’re voting for me because I was willing to keep my vote on **peeker** , unlike you…except that you ultimately \*did \*keep your vote on peeker, unlike me. So you were _willing to remove your vote, but you didn’t actually follow through_ on your intent. I understand you had non-game reasons for not posting, but you do understand that we can really only judge your actions, not your intent. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2010, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/659 "2010-12-27T18:29:53Z")
Is there anybody else awake down here in New Zealand? The only players that have posted to this thread since Christmas are **Scuba\_Ben** and I…with just a bit over 24 hours left in the Day there is a very strange bandwagon built up on me, and I’d really like some input from the rest of the Kiwis on things before it gets to be too late to do anything about it… ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2010, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/660 "2010-12-27T23:40:49Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > Speaking of Idle’s vote… > > Umm…you’re voting for me because I was willing to keep my vote on **peeker** , unlike you…except that you ultimately \*did \*keep your vote on peeker, unlike me. > > So you were _willing to remove your vote, but you didn’t actually follow through_ on your intent. I understand you had non-game reasons for not posting, but you do understand that we can really only judge your actions, not your intent. This basically flies in the face of the code of honor not to use meatspace excuses strategically, though, wouldn’t you say? I just woke up and will be refreshing my perspective on the game for a vote. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553.md?page=32) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553.md?page=34)