# International Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [December 1, 2010, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553 "2010-12-01T16:47:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 36
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/701 "2010-12-28T19:37:08Z")
**Vote: Suburban** ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/702 "2010-12-28T20:00:02Z")
PS, since I believe in claiming before being lynched (or arrested) I’m a standard Dual Citizen, it seems: > [@](#): > > You are a Dual Citizen. > Citizenship: New Zealand and United Kingdom > Win Condition: Arrest all members of the International Crime Ring > > You may travel freely between the United Kingdom and New Zealand. Travel must be initiated (requested) during Night of your present location. Send a PM to the moderator with your intent to travel and you will spend the next Day of your current location traveling to your new location. You will be able to participate during that Day, but cannot vote. You will be able to vote at Dawn of your destination. > > You begin the game in Wellington, New Zealand. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/703 "2010-12-28T20:06:15Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > I said I was coming back. > > How come you posted without commenting on what I thought? > > Doesn’t your role strike you as incredibly powerful and completely unconfirmable? > > Shouldn’t that give me pause? Yes, you said you would “check back in the AM” whebn you posted last night (Post 674). But you had also smudged me way back before Christmas (Post 650), so I figured that by today you hd already had plenty of time to make a case against me. As for “what you thought”: > [@](#): > > Suburban Plankton: Odd claim, I wouldn’t have imagined this role, seems useful, yet potentially overpowered and completely unable to test. Seems a safe claim for Scum, yet it’s still a plausile role. Unlikely to be counter claimed. Still, will be useful information if he dies. (i.e., We’ll know that if he dies and we eliminate a Scum out of those of us in Wellington at the time, that the others are in effect confirmed. This claim makes me uneasy. The claim also came under lynch pressure. What would you have had me say? How about “I’m telling the truth”. Would that have helped? As ffor whether or not it’s unusual, or useful, or overpowered, none of those are really my concern, because I’m not the one who made up the gane. I trust sachertorte to have created a balanced game, so I’m not questioning the validity of my own role. That’s for others (such as yourself) to do. However, since you’ve now asked me a direct question, I’ll go ahead and answer it. My role does seem potentially very powerful, in a best-case scenario. I can determins with a fair deal of accuracy (and depending how travel plays out, potentially with 100% accuracy) how many Scum are in each City. That’s powerful, yes. But in order to do so, I need to survive quite a while, which isn’t easy. I started in transit for 12 hours. Then I had to go through a full Day/Night cycle before I got my first result. Now I need to make it through another Day/Night cycle before I can travel again. Assuming I do it’s another 12 hours in flight, then another Day/Night before I get my second result. So by the time I have a ‘complete picture’, it’s been 4 full Days and Nights (96 hours). I spend two cycles in the air, which means I need to survive 3 Days without getting arrested, and 3 Nights without getting killed. And since the former has proved impossible without claiming, the latter becomes quite a bit harder now. So I thihnk the extended time requirement (1 result every other Night, essentially), balances out the potential power of the role pretty well. As far as it being unconfirmable…I think \*\*peeker \*\*summed it up a ways back. At some point, I’ll probably need to be killed in order to confirm my role. I happen to think that it is premature to do so at this time 🙂 Shouldn’t it give you pause? Of course. I don’t recall saying that it shouldn’t. I don’t recall ever commenting on your reaction to my claim. Every claim should give everyone pause. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/704 "2010-12-28T20:09:31Z")
**unvote USCDiver** **vote special ed** Yes, it’s partially a ‘self preservation’ vote. We’re currently tied, but with me holding the edge in the tiebreaker. I’d prefer to have a bit of breathing room. But that’s not the only reason. I’ve already laid out why I think \*\*ed \*\*has been acting scummy, and his vote for me does nothing to alter that opinion. I hope I’m right. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/705 "2010-12-28T20:15:44Z")
OK, 3 points: 1. I didn’t smudge you. I agreed with Normal regarding her comments on you. You had made an odd move to question everyone after their claims (Ironic now that you seem to be questioning someone who questions your claim, eh?). I also pointed out that it wasn’t enough to base a vote upon. 2. So, because I question your claim, I’m therefore suspicious? > [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > Yes, you said you would “check back in the AM” whebn you posted last night (Post 674). But you had also smudged me way back before Christmas (Post 650), so I figured that by today you hd already had plenty of time to make a case against me. > > 1. early you brought up that I cast suspicion on half the city? I realize that some of you play mafia in a nice cozy word where you trust everyone until given a reason not to. That’s just not how I play the game. I point out the things that I see as suspicious. They may include Cookies choice of who to vote for in London, your claim, Scuba’s only deciding to look at half the city when deciding for whom to vote, and Normal’s desire to get attention on me. If you don’t point out things that you see that seem suspicious, at least you shouldn’t get all in a tizzy when other people do. > > And hey, look, at least it got people talking. Even if everyone I looked at suspiciously cast a vote for me. > > If I thought we were playing don’t point fingers or you’ll get arrested, I certainly would have played differently. > > This is lynch the loud taken to an extreme > > As for “what you thought”: > > What would you have had me say? How about “I’m telling the truth”. Would that have helped? As ffor whether or not it’s unusual, or useful, or overpowered, none of those are really my concern, because I’m not the one who made up the gane. I trust sachertorte to have created a balanced game, so I’m not questioning the validity of my own role. That’s for others (such as yourself) to do. > > However, since you’ve now asked me a direct question, I’ll go ahead and answer it. My role does seem potentially very powerful, in a best-case scenario. I can determins with a fair deal of accuracy (and depending how travel plays out, potentially with 100% accuracy) how many Scum are in each City. That’s powerful, yes. But in order to do so, I need to survive quite a while, which isn’t easy. > > I started in transit for 12 hours. Then I had to go through a full Day/Night cycle before I got my first result. Now I need to make it through another Day/Night cycle before I can travel again. Assuming I do it’s another 12 hours in flight, then another Day/Night before I get my second result. So by the time I have a ‘complete picture’, it’s been 4 full Days and Nights (96 hours). I spend two cycles in the air, which means I need to survive 3 Days without getting arrested, and 3 Nights without getting killed. And since the former has proved impossible without claiming, the latter becomes quite a bit harder now. So I thihnk the extended time requirement (1 result every other Night, essentially), balances out the potential power of the role pretty well. > > As far as it being unconfirmable…I think \*\*peeker \*\*summed it up a ways back. At some point, I’ll probably need to be killed in order to confirm my role. I happen to think that it is premature to do so at this time 🙂 > > Shouldn’t it give you pause? Of course. I don’t recall saying that it shouldn’t. I don’t recall ever commenting on your reaction to my claim. Every claim should give everyone pause. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/706 "2010-12-28T20:19:56Z")
Points: 1. Normal wants attention on me because of something someone might have said in London. When I actually make some noise, she votes me immediately. 2. Cookies wants me silenced because I had questions for her regarding her vote stances. 3. USCDiver votes for me because I was unsure about Suburban’s claim. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/707 "2010-12-28T20:24:22Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > Points: > > 1. Normal wants attention on me because of something someone might have said in London. When I actually make some noise, she votes me immediately. > > 2. Cookies wants me silenced because I had questions for her regarding her vote stances. > > 3. USCDiver votes for me because I was unsure about Suburban’s claim. Well, they can’t all be Scum ([see here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13293053&postcount=669))…so perhaps they’re onto something ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/708 "2010-12-28T20:25:27Z")
Suburban, what no one seems to be willing to address is the power of your role. Let’s make 2 assumptions: 1. You are honest 2. I am the final Scum in Weelington and get arrested Town wins. Right now, during the second cycle (unless they have a cross-world killing power or two) If I am the final Scum and you get confirmed. Even if London has only Scum remaining, Cookies can effectively eliminate them all as the cycles go on. In addition, Mahaloth can help in identifying the actual Scum over there. It’s only a matter of really boring waiting through the cycles to win. Do you think the moderator would have set up the game so that the Town could win so easily? Granted, maybe he didn’t count on the Scum being the first 2 lynches over here, but even so, your claimed power can result in a huge amount of confirmed Town, coupled with Cookies power to eliminate an entire city single handedly (albeit slowly) just seems off to me. And I’m taking heat for pointing that out. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/709 "2010-12-28T20:27:01Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > Well, they can’t all be Scum ([see here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13293053&postcount=669))…so perhaps they’re onto something Sure they aren’t all Scum, I never said they were. That doesn’t mean I shouldn’t be suspicious of them. If I knew which ones were Scum, this wouldn’t be much of a game, now would it. If I’m supposed to keep my mouth shut until I’m certain, then I just play this game very poorly. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/710 "2010-12-28T20:32:34Z")
but, there’s less than half an hour left, so I’d suggest looking at Normal when you’re looking for Scum toMorrow. Here votes have been poorly reasoned out, she’s been smudging, and not really on top of her game in creating cases. Also look at my points for allowing Suburban to travel, protecting him as you can and arresting him once you have his last result. Hopefully he’s honest (doubtful) and we can find the remaining Scum over here, and get an easy victory. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/711 "2010-12-28T20:39:10Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > Suburban, what no one seems to be willing to address is the power of your role. > > Let’s make 2 assumptions: > > 1. You are honest > 2. I am the final Scum in Weelington and get arrested > > Town wins. Right now, during the second cycle (unless they have a cross-world killing power or two) > > If I am the final Scum and you get confirmed. Even if London has only Scum remaining, Cookies can effectively eliminate them all as the cycles go on. In addition, Mahaloth can help in identifying the actual Scum over there. It’s only a matter of really boring waiting through the cycles to win. > > Do you think the moderator would have set up the game so that the Town could win so easily? Granted, maybe he didn’t count on the Scum being the first 2 lynches over here, but even so, your claimed power can result in a huge amount of confirmed Town, coupled with Cookies power to eliminate an entire city single handedly (albeit slowly) just seems off to me. > > And I’m taking heat for pointing that out. But if we arrest you and you turn up Scum, that doesn’t confirm anything with regards to me. As has been pointed out, I don’t get confirmed until I’m taken out of the game one way or another. So I don’t think it’s quite ‘game over’ if I’m right about you. As far as the setup: yes, it might be unbalanced (assuming we get lucky and nail 2 Scum in 2 Days here). Or maybe there are other factors that we aren’t aware of that will restore the balance. We do seem to have a number of town powers that act ‘at a distance’, so I would assume the Scum would have a couple of their own. Or maybe the game isn’t as balanced as the Mods hoped it would be…after all, this is a completely new mechanic. I don’t know, and frankly that’s none of my concern. I’m just playing the game as it is. You are doing the same, of course…I can’t fault you for that: I can only tell you that your suspicions of me are either unfounded (if you’re Town) or a flat-out lie (if you’re Scum). > [@special\_ed](#): > > Sure they aren’t all Scum, I never said they were. That doesn’t mean I shouldn’t be suspicious of them. If I knew which ones were Scum, this wouldn’t be much of a game, now would it. > > If I’m supposed to keep my mouth shut until I’m certain, then I just play this game very poorly. Sorry, that was meant tongue-in-cheek. I just couldn’t help myself…I should have added a smiley ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/712 "2010-12-28T20:40:57Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > But if we arrest you and you turn up Scum, that doesn’t confirm anything with regards to me. As has been pointed out, I don’t get confirmed until I’m taken out of the game one way or another. So I don’t think it’s quite ‘game over’ if I’m right about you. But we’ll know as soon as you are arrested in London. Granted that might take a little bit. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/713 "2010-12-28T20:41:59Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > But we’ll know as soon as you are arrested in London. Granted that might take a little bit. and, one of my assumptions was that you were being honest. And I hope you are. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/714 "2010-12-28T20:52:02Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > but, there’s less than half an hour left, so I’d suggest looking at Normal when you’re looking for Scum toMorrow. > > Here votes have been poorly reasoned out, she’s been smudging, and not really on top of her game in creating cases. All of this is correct (except smudging, IMO), but it would still be wrong, as I am town. Trust me that I can do better than this as town or scum; I’ve just been restricted by having barely five minutes at a time to think about mafia games lately. It’s hard to play that way. You _are_ managing to give me a bad feeling about this lynch, though I won’t change it – but if you’re town, I will pay attention to your argument about Suburban. (As should London, if he turns up there.) And London, please don’t forget Mental Guy. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/715 "2010-12-28T20:52:39Z")
One more thing: Don’t forget that \*\*Pleonast \*\*is here in Wellington Today as well, and he was not part of my investigation last Night (because he was still in transit). So even if you are the ‘last Scum’ in Wellington, you might not be really. And we still have no idea how many Scum are in London. If we assume the game started with 5, then there would currently be 2 or 3 (depending on Pleonast’s alignment) there out of a current population of 8. But perhaps your concern of the Town being ‘overpowered’ is offset by having more than the ‘normal’ number of Scum. Remember, there are no 3rd-parties in this game, so we might be looking at an extra Scum or 2 to balance that out. Now that would seem to indicate that the balance of power was somewhat slanted to start the game…but \*\*sachertorte \*\*might have counted on more travel than we’ve seen so far (none except for \*\*Pleonast’s \*\*‘compulsive’ travel). Since we’re working with a new mechanic that hasn’t been tried before, it may be that much of our ‘conventional wisdom’ doesn’t work exactly as we are accustomed. Or, maybe it does… I guess there’s only one way to find out 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/716 "2010-12-28T21:01:21Z")
I just gotta say, I’m really enjoying this game…I’m especially waiting to hear what the London folks have to say about all of our histrionics here. It’s quite entertaining to spend a week or so arguing over things, then to have a whole 'nother group of folks come in and give their opinions after all is said and done… ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/717 "2010-12-28T21:02:38Z")
**Unvote Plankton** , although I hardly would have called the vote weak (as said by Mahaloth) before he roleclaimed, especially since four people saw fit to vote for him after I did, apparently pinged by him themselves. In spite of his roleclaim, however, I’m unvoting him and will now **vote Ed** for the reasons **Cookies** laid out. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/718 "2010-12-28T21:21:55Z")
Is 4:00 PM Eastern time? ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/719 "2010-12-28T21:33:21Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > Is 4:00 PM Eastern time? That’s my understanding. Per the rules > [@](#): > > he transition between Dawn and Dusk will occur precisely at 4:00 PM EST by the SDMB clock. Board outages will not change the end of Day; plan carefully. All votes must have a time stamp of Thursday, 3:59 PM EST or earlier. Posts and votes with time stamps Thursday, 4:00PM EST or later will be ignored. So Dusk in Wellington/Dawn in London was 33 minutes ago. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/720 "2010-12-28T21:42:59Z")
Crap, I was two minutes late then. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553.md?page=35) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553.md?page=37)