# International Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [December 1, 2010, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553 "2010-12-01T16:47:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 38
**Author:** ![Romanic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@Romanic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Romanic)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/741 "2010-12-29T12:25:52Z")
> [@Wolverine](#): > > \ > > 1. By my count, scum in London 2, scum in New Zealand 0. > > Rysto - indicated as citizen of UK by Mahaloth > MentalGuy > MHaye > NAF1138 > Romanic > Wolverine I want to make sure of something: Are you considering that Rin Twisted was a criminal when you say that by your count there’s 2 scum left in London? I am asking because I missed it the first time, Rin’s death not being highlighted in red. At this point it looks like a total of 5 criminals is more likely than 4, since we have 2 cops, 2 masons and a powerful spy, thus I agree with your statement that there must be two criminals left in London. ---
**Author:** ![Romanic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@Romanic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Romanic)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/742 "2010-12-29T12:50:20Z")
Comparison between the two cop claims: Mahaloth, #632 > [@](#): > > You are a member of the London Metropolitan Police. > Citizenship: United Kingdom > Win Condition: Arrest all members of the International Crime Ring > > Since you are a member of the London Metropolitan Police, your contacts in London enable you to investigate a player in London. The citizenship of your target will be the result of your investigation. True Town citizens have United Kingdom or New Zealand citizenship. However, there may be criminal elements from the UK and New Zealand as well. > > You are not eligible to travel. > > You begin the game in Wellington, New Zealand. Wolverine, #732 > [@](#): > > You are a **Wellington Police Officer.** > Citizenship: **New Zealand** > Win Condition: Arrest all members of the International Crime Ring > > **During the Night you may investigate any player currently present in Wellington. Upon investigation you will receive the citizenship of your target. You know that all innocent players have a United Kingdom or New Zealand citizenship. You also know that anyone found with a citizenship other than United Kingdom or New Zealand is a member of the international crime ring. What you do not know is whether or not anyone with United Kingdom or New Zealand citizenship has joined the international crime ring.** > > You are not eligible to travel. > > You begin the game in **London, United Kingdom**. I put the differences in bold. Obviously the central paragraph is sticking out: Although the ability is the same, the wording is very different. It’s more informative than Mahaloth’s role because of this part: “You know that all innocent players have a United Kingdom or New Zealand citizenship”, which indicates that we cannot have an outsider who’s not a criminal. I don’t think this was a certainty until now, if this claim is true. Anyway, I’m very inclined to believe Wolverine’s claim. ---
**Author:** ![Wolverine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba9def/32.png) [@Wolverine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolverine)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/743 "2010-12-29T13:03:03Z")
From sachertorte, in case you missed it > [@sachertorte](#): > > T48:00 Tuesday 28 December 2010 London Day – Wellington Night > > In other news, **Rin Twisted** has been permanently removed from the game. No substitute volunteered for the role. > Rin Twisted, Criminal and citizen of the United States of America, has been expunged from the game. > > \ > > The following Players have lost: > Rin Twisted (Criminal) Citizen of the United States of America > > London Day will end at 21:00 GMT Monday 3 January 2011. > Wellington Night will end at 10:00AM NZDT Tuesday 4 December 2011. > > (Monday 4:00PM EST 3 January 2011) ---
**Author:** ![Romanic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@Romanic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Romanic)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/744 "2010-12-29T13:06:33Z")
So, six of us left in London: **MentalGuy** - no claim. **Mhaye** - no claim. **NAF1138** - Claims he cannot travel (#101). **Romanic** - This guy is Town, I’m sure of it. **Rysto** - Replaced Drain Bead after day 1. Scanned as a UK Citizen by Suburban Plankton (post #669). **Wolverine** - Claimed Wellington cop (post #739). I’ll start the hostilities with a vote. **vote: MentalGuy** I believe Wolverine’s claim. Rysto was scanned English so I’ll leave him alone for now, even though he could be the Godfather, immune to Plankton’s power. NAF strikes me as Town, even after the discussions I had with him yesterDay. That leaves MentalGuy and MHaye. I’m balancing toward MentalGuy mainly because of the case that was made on him by Normal Phase and I trust her instincts, now that she’s confirmed Town (well almost). ---
**Author:** ![Romanic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@Romanic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Romanic)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/745 "2010-12-29T13:09:14Z")
> [@Wolverine](#): > > From sachertorte, in case you missed it Yeah, I missed it the first time I read the writeup because I skimmed the post, but I got back to it after reading Mahaloth #736 post. So, no, at this point I wasn’t missing that part, but thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/746 "2010-12-29T16:08:27Z")
Frack, sorry, I couldn’t get back to participate in time for local Dusk. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/747 "2010-12-29T17:07:19Z")
> [@Romanic](#): > > So, six of us left in London: > > **MentalGuy** - no claim. > **Mhaye** - no claim. > **NAF1138** - Claims he cannot travel (#101). > **Romanic** - This guy is Town, I’m sure of it. > **Rysto** - Replaced Drain Bead after day 1. Scanned as a UK Citizen by Suburban Plankton (post #669). > **Wolverine** - Claimed Wellington cop (post #739). > > I’ll start the hostilities with a vote. > > **vote: MentalGuy** > > I believe Wolverine’s claim. Rysto was scanned English so I’ll leave him alone for now, even though he could be the Godfather, immune to Plankton’s power. NAF strikes me as Town, even after the discussions I had with him yesterDay. > > That leaves MentalGuy and MHaye. > > I’m balancing toward MentalGuy mainly because of the case that was made on him by Normal Phase and I trust her instincts, now that she’s confirmed Town (well almost). I like your reasoning (though I am not as sure about you as you are about me) and was going to drop a vote on MHaye. **Vote MHaye** It’s a metagame vote, but I have caught him in it before. He hasn’t been his normal helpful self. Sure, he is typically quiet, but then when he talks he generally has something good to say. This game, so far, we have gotten the quiet without the quality posts to back it up. ---
**Author:** ![Wolverine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba9def/32.png) [@Wolverine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolverine)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/748 "2010-12-30T15:58:45Z")
I’m still not convinced of anyone’s alignment. Since MentalGuy and MHaye have votes I thought I should turn my attention to them first before reexamining Romanic and NAF1138. MHaye’s posts (#120) - shows the flaws in my stupid suggestion (#218) - in favor of mass claim (#225) - restates support of mass claim because of ability to catch liars while acknowledging the main flaw is that scum could target travelers to keep one town traveling to the other to lynch scum (#227) - speculates about passport clerk [does MHaye have similar role?] (#242) - comments on Day 1 bandwagons for Baffle and ShadowFacts (#246) - see that ShadowFacts has claimed and votes for Baffle (#527) - long attack on Romanic with vote (#548) - explains WIFOM [BTW, I’ve seen the movie at least a dozen times, but had never see that phrase in acronym form before] No strong reading from me either way. I couldn’t find any scum pings or suspicious wordings. MentalGuy’s posts (#121) - Waffles on mass claim. Thinks it’s a good idea but does not feel strongly enough to push for it. Then says that mass claims are almost always beneficial. Also points outs my idea was odd, but doesn’t see the scum advantage (#165) - Doesn’t like Baffle or Astral Rejection. Suspicious of Astral because they are suspicious of me. “Astral is looking for an easy reason to have a vote on someone.” [But Astral is killed that night. Of course town would look for suspicious behavior] Wants vanilla town people to travel to draw attention away from town with power roles that need to travel. (#232) - Votes Baffle. Now against mass claims, but thinks that individual claims are OK. [Does not claim their own role] (#237) - Responds to Astral Rejection about suspicions. Seems to be indicating that a mass claim would be good “I also think forcing the scum to choose would probably be a good thing” (#532) - Defends Rin Twisted. Suggests my vote against Rin Twisted is a “safe vote” (which ended up being a good vote) and then misconstrues my attack against Rin Twisted as being against him. [Does not acknowledge later that they overreacted to my post after I responded back] Votes ShadowFacts (#554) - Responds to Normal Phase’s objections (#572) - Defends ShadowFacts vote (#584) - Again defends vote There is a lot more things in here that are setting off my radar. I still want to look at Romanic and NAF1138 again before the end of the day, but **vote MentalGuy** Primary reasons: They are in favor of sharing travel information, _but do not divulge any of their own_. They are sensitive to being associated with scum/Rin Twisted, but uses my attack against Rin as further possible proof of my scuminess. ---
**Author:** ![MentalGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/439d5e/32.png) [@MentalGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MentalGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/749 "2010-12-30T23:15:43Z")
So that other players do not waste any more time trying to figure things out, we (the remaining criminals, Rysto and myself) have decided to concede. We (well, primarily Rysto) have analyzed the game and even if we both survive as long as is feasible, there is still no way we could win the game. The town team has too many players that are essentially confirmed or will be confirmed for us to eliminate them all. Good game, town. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/750 "2010-12-31T00:44:55Z")
Wow, so I was wrong about damn near everything in this game. Go me. Yay for winning? ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/751 "2010-12-31T00:59:25Z")
Wow, that was sort of…anti-climatic. But nice job Town. (I would have never guessed **Rysto** was scum, myself) ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/752 "2010-12-31T01:02:11Z")
Another thought: The game was fun and a nice one and thank you to **Sach** for hosting…but it did seem to leaned heavily in favor of Town. I mean, two cops with strong powers? Even **Plankton** ’s power alone was pretty strong (being able to deduce the number of scum in each location). Seemed a little off balance to me. Unless scum has some really special/strong powers they didn’t have a chance to use. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/753 "2010-12-31T01:27:34Z")
Wow, so Rysto/Drain was a godfather? Wow. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/754 "2010-12-31T01:28:34Z")
Uh, I only posted because I assume the game is over. Sach, can you let us know if it is not? ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/755 "2010-12-31T01:35:52Z")
After thinking about it a bit more, I sort of need to take back what I said about the game being balanced in favor of Town. I forgot that **Rin Twisted** was scum too, but was taken out since no sub was found. That’s always a big blow to a side, especially scum side. And the fact that one scum just happened to be in Wellington the Day before (as per **SP** ’s power) and that we managed to find that one must have set them back majorly with all the rest of the Wellington players being semi-confirmed. Oh sure, **SP** could have been lying, but it seems most were going to give him the benefit of the doubt for now. So it seems just lousy luck played a bigger part in it then I previously saw. ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/756 "2010-12-31T01:36:30Z")
MentalGuy had the ability to get somebody travelling from Wellington to London rejected at the border and sent back. I was a godfather, and Ed was an investigator. I think that sachertorte didn’t realize the the two city setup favoured Town as much as it ended up doing. I think that the concept is a good one but obviously it needs some tweaking in order to balance it properly. I have some more concrete suggestions in mind which I’ll PM to sachertorte. In case anybody was wondering, here’s why scum can’t win: > [@](#): > > Just to be a little more clear, here’s a best case scenario: > > Currently there are 5 town votes in London to 2 scum votes(because of Cookies). > > T59:59 - Lynch NAF (4-2) > T60:00 - Investigate Romanic (by Mahaloth) > T71:59 - Kill Wolverine (3-2) > T83:59 - Lynch MHaye (2-2) > T84:00 - Investigate MentalGuy > T95:59 - Kill Romanic (1-2) > T96:00 - Pleo’s travel is blocked, Suburban and Idle arrive (3-2) > T107:59 - Lynch MentalGuy > Game Over > > I suppose that if the town lynched Suburban and there are no travellers in NZ other than Pleo, Idle and Suburban we could potentially force a tie, but that seems incredibly unlikely to me. The key thing is that once there was only one scum in London, Cookies could eventually get me lynched but I had nothing I could do to her. I don’t think that sachertorte realized the effectiveness of powers that work at a distance. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/757 "2010-12-31T02:08:50Z")
> [@Rysto](#): > > MentalGuy had the ability to get somebody travelling from Wellington to London rejected at the border and sent back. I was a godfather, and Ed was an investigator. > > I think that sachertorte didn’t realize the the two city setup favoured Town as much as it ended up doing. I think that the concept is a good one but obviously it needs some tweaking in order to balance it properly. I have some more concrete suggestions in mind which I’ll PM to sachertorte. > > In case anybody was wondering, here’s why scum can’t win: > > The key thing is that once there was only one scum in London, Cookies could eventually get me lynched but I had nothing I could do to her. I don’t think that sachertorte realized the effectiveness of powers that work at a distance. Just a quick note, if Rysto took control of London, the game would have split. Cookies could not arrest Rysto. All Rysto had to do was vote for someone, ANYONE else and his vote would take precedence over Cookies (e.g., vote for Cookies herself). Then Rysto would not be arrestable. I agree that scum were in a very bad place, but I’m not convinced the stalemate was out of reach. I’ll have to think about it more. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/758 "2010-12-31T02:41:20Z")
Well, that was a bit anticlimactic…but I’ll take a win any way I can get it… 🙂 sachertorte, thanks for sunning this game. It was a very interesting and a lot of fun. I’m not sure if it was overly balanced in the Town’s favor, or if we just got extremely lucky. I’m sure things would have been much different if we hadn’t bagged Scum the first 2 Nights in Wellington…and while I’d like to claim superior investigative skills on that, it was really mostly luck. And losing Rin Twisted on top of it certainly didn’t help the Scum’s cause. I hope someone runs another one of these games…and I hope we get a bit more movement of players next time. It’s an interesting twist, and it barely got used at all… ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/759 "2010-12-31T02:46:17Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > Just a quick note, if Rysto took control of London, the game would have split. Cookies could not arrest Rysto. All Rysto had to do was vote for someone, ANYONE else and his vote would take precedence over Cookies (e.g., vote for Cookies herself). That would work fine one day, but what happens the next? I don’t think that I could arrest Cookies a second time, could I? ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553/760 "2010-12-31T03:08:13Z")
> [@Rysto](#): > > That would work fine one day, but what happens the next? I don’t think that I could arrest Cookies a second time, could I? you probably could have arrested the same person each Day, as long as they were in Wellington and never traveled to London [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553.md?page=37) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/international-mafia/562553.md?page=39)