# Interpreting anti-Israel statements as anti-semitic is a two way street. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 30, 2014, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interpreting-anti-israel-statements-as-anti-semitic-is-a-two-way-street/696949 "2014-08-30T11:28:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interpreting-anti-israel-statements-as-anti-semitic-is-a-two-way-street/696949/61 "2014-08-31T00:11:25Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Russia (to use your example) has exhibited brutal behavior towards its ethnic minorities and swallowed up chunks of its neighbors’ territory. Have any U.K. politicians declared Russia-free zones in their districts and announced that Russians are not welcome there? Pakistan alternately plays footsie with terrorists and slaughters its own citizens during anti-terrorist military campaigns. Have any rabble-rousing U.K. politicians declared that their home city is off limits to Pakistanis (one can imagine the resulting riots making Ferguson, MO look like a haven of racial calm)? What the hell does lawn care have to do with this? There have in the past been boycotts of South African, Chilean, Soviet and Argentinian produce, and criticism of the state. What Galloway said was probably legal about any country. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interpreting-anti-israel-statements-as-anti-semitic-is-a-two-way-street/696949/62 "2014-08-31T00:36:13Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Which is continuing the diversion from the question being considered. Well, look: you (a) kicked off this thread by mentioning that Galloway engaged in thus-and-such criticism; you then (b) added that Galloway was thus questioned under criminal caution. And you then asked how appropriate it is to engage in such criticism. My reply is that it’s entirely appropriate to engage in such criticism, which is why the response you said he received strikes me as – well, _inappropriate_. How can that be a diversion from the question? It’s a direct answer to your question! ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interpreting-anti-israel-statements-as-anti-semitic-is-a-two-way-street/696949/63 "2014-08-31T00:49:54Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Well, look: you (a) kicked off this thread by mentioning that Galloway engaged in thus-and-such criticism; you then (b) added that Galloway was thus questioned under criminal caution. And you then asked how appropriate it is to engage in such criticism. My reply is that it’s entirely appropriate to engage in such criticism, which is why the response you said he received strikes me as – well, _inappropriate_. > > How can that be a diversion from the question? It’s a direct answer to your question! Try reading the OP: "A British MP was questioned under criminal caution for stating that his city and constituency were an Israel free area, calling for a boycott of Israel sourced goods and demonstrations against Israeli sympathisers, because of strong feelings over the Israeli attacks on civilians in Gaza. Now he has been attacked in the street by an Israel supporting assailant railing about the holocaust, calling the MP a holocaust denier and calling him a new Hitler. I can see no real legal or moral reason to treat a call for a country’s products to be boycotted or supporters demonstrated against to be investigated as a criminal offence. If it was OK for Chile and South Africa, and for cheese eating surrender monkey freedom fries nutters, then Israel should not be excluded. And when supporters of Israel use the history of the holocaust as an excuse, and accuse people who oppose the aims of the Israeli Government and people as holocaust denier and anti-Semites, they open the door for racists to use the mirror argument that all Jews are responsible for Israeli state actions if critics can be called out as holocaust denier or anti-Semites." ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interpreting-anti-israel-statements-as-anti-semitic-is-a-two-way-street/696949/64 "2014-08-31T00:55:40Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Try reading the OP I have it on good authority – from the author of said post – that _“the question was not about the stupidity or not of that law, but about how appropriate it is to criticise States for their policies on such things as launching missiles into opposing territories.”_ I therefore answered the question of how appropriate it is to engage in such criticism. I note, in passing, that the bit you just copy-and-pasted contains a grand total of _zero_ questions. But so long as I’m told that “the question was not about the stupidity or not of that law, but about how appropriate it is to criticise States for their policies on such things” – well, then, shucks, I’m happy to answer that question by telling you _exactly_ how appropriate it is. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interpreting-anti-israel-statements-as-anti-semitic-is-a-two-way-street/696949/65 "2014-08-31T01:13:53Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I would recommend that you keep to the original question and stop bringing up inter-nation attacks. Only the US interned its own citizens to its shame. Er…As I mentioned. [http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese\_Canadian\_internment](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Canadian_internment) > [@](#): > > Again you suggest that only the UK has a problem with Jews (and others) not being integrated. This is plainly false. No, I’ve never suggested this. I’ve merely pointed out that anti-Semitism is more of a problem in the UK than the US and Canada. The question is why is this? > [@](#): > > I don’t think you know what an out-group is: I’m an Iranian-American. With all due respect, I think I have a vastly better idea what is the difference between an in-group and an out-group in America than a privileged white person would have. Jews are not an out-group in America to the extent they are in the UK or most of Europe. There’s a reason more Jews live in the US than Israel and that Israel raised holy hell about how many Russian Jews would rather go to the US than Israel in the 1990s on. > [@](#): > > Do you believe that it is possible to hold that the Israeli State is engaging in acts which, were it not for the protection of the USA, would lead to accusations of war crimes and other breaches of international obligations, and yet at the same time to remain free of the taint of anti-Semitism and free from accusations thus? Er… You do realize I’ve repeatedly claimed Israel is a racist state and that the Balfour Declaration, which was largely motivated by British anti-Semitism, shouldn’t have been issued? Yes, but many like to take shots at Israel because they love to sock it to the Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interpreting-anti-israel-statements-as-anti-semitic-is-a-two-way-street/696949/66 "2014-08-31T01:20:04Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > There have in the past been boycotts of South African, Chilean, Soviet and Argentinian produce, and criticism of the state. What Galloway said was probably legal about any country. That wasn’t the question. ---
**Author:** ![mil0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac8455/32.png) [@mil0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mil0)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interpreting-anti-israel-statements-as-anti-semitic-is-a-two-way-street/696949/67 "2014-08-31T01:41:40Z")
I’d like to imagine most honest people can recognize dog-whistle politics when they see it. But if not, Naza Khan and others of Galloway’s party have tried to make it abundantly clear even for the tin-eared among us how they feel about Jews. [QUOTE=Naza Khan] It’s such a shame that the history teachers in our school never taught us this but they are the first to start brainwashing us and our children into thinking the bad guy was Hitler. What have the Jews done good in this world?? [/QUOTE] Surely it’s just a coincidence that those who write this kind of commentary find employment in the Respect party. Of course you can criticize Israel and its policies without being antisemitic, but it sure makes a common pairing. I also find a stunning ignorance of Israel’s regional history to be a common pairing as well, but that’s off-topic. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interpreting-anti-israel-statements-as-anti-semitic-is-a-two-way-street/696949/68 "2014-08-31T02:29:46Z")
[QUOTE=Pjen] I’ll tell you what, maybe the Brits will get a little more Freedom of Expression when Americans are allowed to live slightly longer by the police exercising reasonable restraint. [/QUOTE] Gosh, we USers have _such_ control over you. Who would’ve thunk it? > [@Pjen](#): > > There have in the past been boycotts of South African, Chilean, Soviet and Argentinian produce, and criticism of the state. What Galloway said was probably legal about any country. I’d certainly hope so. But the question remains - have any of your politicians taken it to the extreme of declaring their home city/territory off limits to residents of those countries? What makes Israel different? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interpreting-anti-israel-statements-as-anti-semitic-is-a-two-way-street/696949/69 "2014-08-31T02:51:22Z")
I’d like to thank the OP for yet again bringing to our attention that Israel isn’t perfect and some people don’t like it. ---
**Author:** ![kurtisokc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kurtisokc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kurtisokc)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interpreting-anti-israel-statements-as-anti-semitic-is-a-two-way-street/696949/70 "2014-08-31T03:03:02Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > The UK has got the hang of free speech, just a somewhat different take than the US. There is a major fallacy in assuming that the US way is the only way. This is just stupid nationalism. > > There is no “royal committee” overseeing what newspapers can print. > > Our libel laws are different and used to encourage libel tourist, but no longer do so. We choose to interpret defamation somewhat differently to the US, but less restrictively than many European countries which have more stringent privacy laws. > > Regarding police acting in a doubtful manner I need only cite Ferguson. > > The question here is should the State of Israel be treated on any way differently from the State of Ruritania regarding criticism of policies, demonstrations, boycotts etc. Respectfully, I disagree. The fact of the matter is that this man is being investigated and threatened with possible criminal prosecution based simply upon the content of the opinions he expressed, without any indication whatsoever they they posed an imminent threat of inciting violence. You can talk all you want about Britain having a “different take” on free speech than the US, but if free speech is defined in such a way as to only apply to those who hold “correct” viewpoints, then it isn’t really free speech at all. I kind of feel conflicted about this because I personally find Mr. Galloway’s opinions to be so revolting and disgusting that I would be willing to go to war to prevent them from ever being enacted into public policy. At the same time, I would also go to war to ensure his right to believe what he does and speak his mind. And as much as I disagree with him, I would still pay him a certain amount of grudging respect if he had said to the police: “I have nothing to say to you. I do not recognize the right of the state to criminalize anything I say, or your right to investigate what I say. Fuck you.” ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interpreting-anti-israel-statements-as-anti-semitic-is-a-two-way-street/696949/71 "2014-08-31T03:48:20Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > In the UK the way . . . . . Thing is, other than the Beatles and a couple of decent beers, y’all kinda “suck”. And I have many Brit friends and all. Just sayin. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interpreting-anti-israel-statements-as-anti-semitic-is-a-two-way-street/696949/72 "2014-08-31T04:20:00Z")
Ok, to address your three topics, and only your three topics. 1. The police shouldn’t treat as criminal the call to boycott a country, regardless of the merits of boycotting the country. 2. It’s possible to criticize Israel’s actions without being anti-Semitic 3. Violence against random individual Jews because the perpetrator of the violence doesn’t like Israel’s actions is anti-Semitic, inexcusable, and illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interpreting-anti-israel-statements-as-anti-semitic-is-a-two-way-street/696949/73 "2014-08-31T06:40:56Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Ok, to address your three topics, and only your three topics. > > 1. The police shouldn’t treat as criminal the call to boycott a country, regardless of the merits of boycotting the country. > > 2. It’s possible to criticize Israel’s actions without being anti-Semitic > > 3. Violence against random individual Jews because the perpetrator of the violence doesn’t like Israel’s actions is anti-Semitic, inexcusable, and illegal. These are fair points. Of course: 1. There’s no suggestion in this thread that this happened in this case. (Britain has laws against hate speech. British police investigate allegations of criminality. Not all investigations of alleged criminality find criminality. All countries have restrictions on ‘free speech’. Everyone agrees that America’s restrictions on ‘free speech’ are undeniably the most American. Not everyone agrees that ‘best’ is synonymous with ‘most American’.) 2. Not if your definition of ‘anti-Semitic’ is ‘antagonistic towards the state of Israel’. 3(a) Possibly, though if you use the definition in 2 then it’s only the Israeli context which makes it anti-Semitic. I had expected the ‘two way street’ to be about this point. If you redefine ‘anti-Semitic’ away from being ‘antagonistic to Jews’ then it doesn’t necessarily remain a bad thing. 3(b) Possibly, if you mean physical violence specifically. Apparently, verbal or emotional violence would not be inexcusable or illegal in America, because America’s free speech laws are the most American. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interpreting-anti-israel-statements-as-anti-semitic-is-a-two-way-street/696949/74 "2014-08-31T06:57:42Z")
I think the key point here is the difference between "antagonistic toward the State of Israel and “antagonistic toward Israelis”. The first is a legitimate political opinion. The second is discrimination against an ethnic group. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interpreting-anti-israel-statements-as-anti-semitic-is-a-two-way-street/696949/75 "2014-08-31T09:20:03Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I think the key point here is the difference between "antagonistic toward the State of Israel and “antagonistic toward Israelis”. The first is a legitimate political opinion. The second is discrimination against an ethnic group. Which was one of my points. Galloway may be a contentious shit stirrer, but he merely called for actions against Israel, NOT against Jews, and then gets attacked in the street for being anti-Semitic and a Holocaust denier. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interpreting-anti-israel-statements-as-anti-semitic-is-a-two-way-street/696949/76 "2014-08-31T09:21:32Z")
> [@kurtisokc](#): > > Respectfully, I disagree. The fact of the matter is that this man is being investigated and threatened with possible criminal prosecution based simply upon the content of the opinions he expressed, without any indication whatsoever they they posed an imminent threat of inciting violence. You can talk all you want about Britain having a “different take” on free speech than the US, but if free speech is defined in such a way as to only apply to those who hold “correct” viewpoints, then it isn’t really free speech at all. > > I kind of feel conflicted about this because I personally find Mr. Galloway’s opinions to be so revolting and disgusting that I would be willing to go to war to prevent them from ever being enacted into public policy. At the same time, I would also go to war to ensure his right to believe what he does and speak his mind. And as much as I disagree with him, I would still pay him a certain amount of grudging respect if he had said to the police: “I have nothing to say to you. I do not recognize the right of the state to criminalize anything I say, or your right to investigate what I say. Fuck you.” You find it “revolting and disgusting” to call for sanctions against a state and its citizens? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interpreting-anti-israel-statements-as-anti-semitic-is-a-two-way-street/696949/77 "2014-08-31T09:23:40Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Which was one of my points. Galloway may be a contentious shit stirrer, but he merely called for actions against Israel, NOT against Jews, and then gets attacked in the street for being anti-Semitic and a Holocaust denier. But Galloway also said that Israelis were not welcome in his constituency. Not just representatives of the Israeli government - _all_ Israelis. That’s discrimination against Israelis as an ethnic group (separate from discrimination against Jews in general). ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interpreting-anti-israel-statements-as-anti-semitic-is-a-two-way-street/696949/78 "2014-08-31T09:39:31Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > But Galloway also said that Israelis were not welcome in his constituency. Not just representatives of the Israeli government - _all_ Israelis. That’s discrimination against Israelis as an ethnic group (separate from discrimination against Jews in general). Aha, my point exactly. If someone called on a boycott of Russia and its citizens would this be perceived as anti-Slavic discrimination. Israel tries to have it both ways- claiming to be a ‘normal’ state, yet claiming ‘abnormal’ protection for its citizens because the are a recognised ethnic group subject to discrimination. Would such a call against Zimbabwe and her citizens be necessarily racist because most Zimbabweans are Black? I recall that similar statements were made about South Africa before the fall of apartheid, where to be a white South African in the UK it was necessary to promote anti-apartheid views before being seen as welcome in British Society. I suspect that and Israeli citizen expressing abhorrence at the actions of Israel would not necessarily be undesirable in Bradford. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interpreting-anti-israel-statements-as-anti-semitic-is-a-two-way-street/696949/79 "2014-08-31T09:45:02Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > But Galloway also said that Israelis were not welcome in his constituency. Not just representatives of the Israeli government - _all_ Israelis. That’s discrimination against Israelis as an ethnic group (separate from discrimination against Jews in general). Not to mention the 20% of Israeli citizens who are not Jewish. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interpreting-anti-israel-statements-as-anti-semitic-is-a-two-way-street/696949/80 "2014-08-31T09:52:12Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Israel tries to have it both ways- claiming to be a ‘normal’ state, yet claiming ‘abnormal’ protection for its citizens because the are a recognised ethnic group subject to discrimination. Well, I’d say that most normal states are comprised of ethnic groups that can be subject to discrimination. Galloway would be just as wrong to say that he didn’t want any French or Japanese tourists, either. Also, requiring that a private citizen make any comment whatsoever regarding the actions of his or her government as a precondition for anything is absolutely absurd. Individuals are allowed to hold whatever opinions they choose, and no opinion can legitimize discrimination. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interpreting-anti-israel-statements-as-anti-semitic-is-a-two-way-street/696949.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interpreting-anti-israel-statements-as-anti-semitic-is-a-two-way-street/696949.md?page=5)