# Interpreting anti-Israel statements as anti-semitic is a two way street. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 30, 2014, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interpreting-anti-israel-statements-as-anti-semitic-is-a-two-way-street/696949 "2014-08-30T11:28:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interpreting-anti-israel-statements-as-anti-semitic-is-a-two-way-street/696949/81 "2014-08-31T09:57:12Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Well, I’d say that most normal states are comprised of ethnic groups that can be subject to discrimination. Galloway would be just as wrong to say that he didn’t want any French or Japanese tourists, either. > > Also, requiring that a private citizen make any comment whatsoever regarding the actions of his or her government as a precondition for anything is absolutely absurd. Individuals are allowed to hold whatever opinions they choose, and no opinion can legitimize discrimination. The French are an extremely Ethnically diverse nation. The Japanese are even more ethnically based than Israel. Does this depend on ethnic purity where only countries with single ethnicity can claim special treatment? I do not here Japan or Thailand or Burma complaining of racism when their policies are opposed- it seems a particular habit of the Israeli state to make the claim that being Anti-Israel is a sub division of being Anti-Semitic. I can understand how this comes about but do not think the argument is tenable - that anti Israel statements are necessarily anti-Semitic because most Israelis are Jewish. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interpreting-anti-israel-statements-as-anti-semitic-is-a-two-way-street/696949/82 "2014-08-31T10:04:19Z")
I don’t call it ethnic discrimination when my countries’ policies are opposed. I do consider it ethnic discrimination when my fellow citizens are discriminated against because of the actions of their government. Can you see that difference? Also: you keep repeating the term “special treatment”. As any gay person will tell you, asking for the same rights as anyone else is not considered asking for special treatment. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interpreting-anti-israel-statements-as-anti-semitic-is-a-two-way-street/696949/83 "2014-08-31T10:13:12Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I don’t call it ethnic discrimination when my countries’ policies are opposed. I do consider it ethnic discrimination when my fellow citizens are discriminated against because of the actions of their government. Can you see that difference? > > Also: you keep repeating the term “special treatment”. As any gay person will tell you, asking for the same rights as anyone else is not considered asking for special treatment. It is special treatment if a country seeks to arrogate to itself the protection of quoting pograms and the holocaust as a reason why the state should have a special protection against criticism- the false claim that being anti-Israel is an–Semitic. Being against the Israeli State and its citizens is no more anti-Semitic than being against Zimbabwe and its citizens is anti-black, but Israel and her supporters are happy to continue the pretence as with the abuse shouted at Galloway about Holocaust Denial and anti-Semitism for criticising Israel and her citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interpreting-anti-israel-statements-as-anti-semitic-is-a-two-way-street/696949/84 "2014-08-31T10:15:50Z")
So if I put a “No Irish” sign over the door to my pub, and explain that I only mean people holding Irish citizenship, that’s all right? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interpreting-anti-israel-statements-as-anti-semitic-is-a-two-way-street/696949/85 "2014-08-31T11:11:28Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > So if I put a “No Irish” sign over the door to my pub, and explain that I only mean people holding Irish citizenship, that’s all right? That would be illegal as a service is involved. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interpreting-anti-israel-statements-as-anti-semitic-is-a-two-way-street/696949/86 "2014-08-31T11:17:59Z")
Huh. I thought we were talking about morality here, not legality. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interpreting-anti-israel-statements-as-anti-semitic-is-a-two-way-street/696949/87 "2014-08-31T11:27:28Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > That would be illegal as a service is involved. Seems of a piece with _“We don’t want any Israeli goods; we don’t want any Israeli services; we don’t want any Israeli academics coming to the university or the college. We don’t even want any Israeli tourists to come to Bradford even if any of them had thought of doing so.”_ In **Alessan** ’s hypothetical, he merely indicates that they should stay out of a particular pub; the actual quote indicates that they should stay out of a particular pub, and out of every other pub on that street – and out of all sorts of other establishments on yet other city streets, as well as out of said streets. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interpreting-anti-israel-statements-as-anti-semitic-is-a-two-way-street/696949/88 "2014-08-31T13:06:59Z")
I don’t have a problem with anyone not wanting something. Feel free to not want anything you want. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interpreting-anti-israel-statements-as-anti-semitic-is-a-two-way-street/696949/89 "2014-08-31T13:08:17Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Being against the Israeli State and its citizens is no more anti-Semitic than being against Zimbabwe and its citizens is anti-black, but Israel and her supporters are happy to continue the pretence as with the abuse shouted at Galloway about Holocaust Denial and anti-Semitism for criticising Israel and her citizens. That is an excellent example of a thought of mine. Would African Americans take that as prejudiced against all Blacks? I imagine some of them would, and some White guys would be glad for any excuse to be anti-Black. I believe that the connection between Jews and Israel is similar. As someone mentioned up thread, 20% of Israeli citizens are not Jews. I doubt that many people in America and Europe know that, and that they associate Israelis as being Jewish. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interpreting-anti-israel-statements-as-anti-semitic-is-a-two-way-street/696949/90 "2014-08-31T13:29:40Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Seems of a piece with _“We don’t want any Israeli goods; we don’t want any Israeli services; we don’t want any Israeli academics coming to the university or the college. We don’t even want any Israeli tourists to come to Bradford even if any of them had thought of doing so.”_ In **Alessan** ’s hypothetical, he merely indicates that they should stay out of a particular pub; the actual quote indicates that they should stay out of a particular pub, and out of every other pub on that street – and out of all sorts of other establishments on yet other city streets, as well as out of said streets. People got into a great deal of trouble doing that in the Southern United States. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interpreting-anti-israel-statements-as-anti-semitic-is-a-two-way-street/696949/91 "2014-08-31T13:46:19Z")
Maybe Bradford could become a Sundown town for Israelis. Welcome during the day to spend money, but better be gone by dark. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interpreting-anti-israel-statements-as-anti-semitic-is-a-two-way-street/696949/92 "2014-08-31T14:27:29Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Maybe Bradford could become a Sundown town for Israelis. Welcome during the day to spend money, but better be gone by dark. Okay, now I’m thinking [Crossroad Blues](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd60nI4sa9A) by a Klezmer band. Thanks a lot. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interpreting-anti-israel-statements-as-anti-semitic-is-a-two-way-street/696949/93 "2014-08-31T14:34:25Z")
At least it gives me an opportunity to look down my nose with a sneer at those provincial barbarians in Europe. Why can’t they get a clue like the civilized world? Have they no concept of human rights? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interpreting-anti-israel-statements-as-anti-semitic-is-a-two-way-street/696949/94 "2014-08-31T15:08:21Z")
Perhaps Pjen could help us by pointing to instances when some MKs have declared that no Russians or Zimbabweans or other citizens were “welcome” in their towns. I’m not aware of any. Also Pjen seems to be implying that Galloway includes all Israelis including Arab Israelis in his proposed boycott. I’m not 100% sure, but I believe Galloway has met with and praised Arab Israeli MKs, making a point of walking off a stage when he found one of the people there as an Israeli Jew. So that doesn’t appear to be the case. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interpreting-anti-israel-statements-as-anti-semitic-is-a-two-way-street/696949/95 "2014-08-31T16:30:04Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > People got into a great deal of trouble doing that in the Southern United States. > 🙂 Yeah, but then again people get in no trouble whatsoever doing that in Israel. It might even out somewhere. [QUOTE=Alessan] I don’t call it ethnic discrimination when my countries’ policies are opposed. I do consider it ethnic discrimination when my fellow citizens are discriminated against because of the actions of their government. Can you see that difference? [/QUOTE] **Alessan** , I have absolutely no beef against you personally whatsoever. And this is no Internet sarcasm - you do seem to me like a really good guy. Buuut it’s still darkly ironic to hear you, an Israeli, say this, when the whole “guilt by association with their government” is a well your government and the PR arm of the IDF are so busy drying up when it comes to Palestinians. You know, the whole “Palestinians elected Hamas therefore all Palestinians are terrorism lovers and can only blame themselves when the Merkavas roll in” canard, certainly no stranger to this very board, which neatly excuses any and all “collateral damage”, overkill and… well, all that Bibi shit. Of which I’m sure you’re aware of (and probably are annoyed with and/or disgusted by. As I said, you seem like a mensch). ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interpreting-anti-israel-statements-as-anti-semitic-is-a-two-way-street/696949/96 "2014-08-31T17:57:05Z")
\*\*Kobal2 \*\*- the thought had occurred to me. The main difference, I think, is that Israel is at war with the Palestinians. In the game we both are playing, collective punishment is written into the rules - both sides know that. If George Galloway, or the UK as a whole, want to declare war on Israel, then that’s their right - and it would certainly allow them to forbid me to enter their town or their country; but then they’ll have to deal with certain consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interpreting-anti-israel-statements-as-anti-semitic-is-a-two-way-street/696949/97 "2014-08-31T18:15:02Z")
Also, while I dislike Bibi Netanyahu and deplore the manner in which he had handled the peace process prior to this summer, I think he did a good job handling the crisis. Bear in mind that he was the voice of moderation during the fighting - except for the fringes, there was virtually nobody to his left and tons of people trying to pull him to the right (the opposition, for instance, supported him completely). If he had listened to the hawks in his own coalition - and if the military hadn’t largely backed his position - casualties would have been tens of times higher, on both sides, and the army would right now still be fighting in the heart of Gaza City. ---
**Author:** ![kurtisokc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kurtisokc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kurtisokc)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interpreting-anti-israel-statements-as-anti-semitic-is-a-two-way-street/696949/98 "2014-08-31T20:25:22Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > You find it “revolting and disgusting” to call for sanctions against a state and its citizens? What I find revolting is that his remarks aren’t limited to the Israeli government, but to individual Israelis. More broadly, I object to the double standard that the European left imposes on Israel compared with a group which doesn’t even recognize its right to exist, and the implication that Israel doesn’t shouldn’t do anything to defend itself when it is attacked by rockets fired from outside its territory. FTW I agree that criticism of the Israeli government isn’t automatically anti-semitic. And I agree that some of Israel’s actions should be criticized such as, for example, continuing to allow the construction of settlements in occupied territories. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interpreting-anti-israel-statements-as-anti-semitic-is-a-two-way-street/696949.md?page=4)