# Intersectionality and the Oppression Pyramid **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2025, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016 "2025-05-07T16:38:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2025, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/181 "2025-05-13T15:03:15Z")
Yeah, I definitely see some very ugly antisemitism on the left. I also see some very ugly equation of criticism of Israel with antisemitism on the left. The former is straight-up bigotry. The latter tends toward the sort of weaponization of bigotry accusations that I talked about earlier in the thread. Normally I’d say that the former is much worse. But the specific moment we’re in–in which stifling criticism of Israel can enable policies that are IMO horrific–makes me wonder. Edit: and I didn’t originally include it because I don’t want to get mired in “both sides” accusations–but in case people think I’m cherrypicking, both dynamics occur just as often if not more so on the right. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2025, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/182 "2025-05-13T15:23:29Z")
AFAICT, in Europe, antisemitism is nearly as well represented on the left as on the right. In the USA it’s still almost entirely on the right. Not sure exactly why that is, aside perhaps from the much longer history of antisemitism in Europe. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2025, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/183 "2025-05-13T15:51:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > In the USA it’s still almost entirely on the right Really no. Just not an accurate statement. That’s the relevant point to this thread. There’s more a blind eye to its presence on the Left. And it is often expressed differently. It definitely is there. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2025, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/184 "2025-05-13T16:15:10Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I actually do not see that much. > > Pretty much across cultures there are both lots of individuals with antisemitic beliefs, and lots of people who whether or not they have antisemitic beliefs think that Israel equals Jews, who think, for example supporting all Israeli policies means being a great friend to Jews. That conflation happens even among some Jews. And the reverse applies. I’m mostly talking about the situation in the UK here. There are good reasons to expect a significant difference with the US. But firstly, do you understand that I am not saying antisemitism isn’t a high enough priority in general? Islamophobia/anti-Muslim attitudes are far more common than antisemitism in the UK, and are rightly treated as a major issue. But that doesn’t mean other problems cannot be addressed simultaneously, and indeed this one is. My objection is to the _way_ it is handled, as I described previously - an unwillingness to address the issue when it occurs in minority groups, and corresponding uneven application of social and legal sanctions. This particular example doesn’t affect me personally, but I believe it reflects a wider problem that is likely to worsen if ignored. Plus, the treatment of sexism/misogyny by the left follows the same pattern, and that _does_ affect me personally. On to the data. Here is a survey from Britain that looked at both antisemitic and anti-Israel attitudes separately; in the general population, and specifically among Muslims, Christians, the far-left and the far-right. The headline results are that while antisemitism overall is low, antisemitic attitudes are 2-4 times more common among both Muslims and the far-right, while they are not elevated above the general population in either Christians or the far-left. (In the former case likely because there are few fundamentalist Christians in the UK.) Meanwhile, both Muslims and the left generally had higher levels of anti-Israel attitudes. Comparing the far-left and the far-right, while the far-right had a much higher rate of antisemitism, there were a lot more people identifying themselves as far-left, so that the total number of people from each group exhibiting these attitudes was similar. They also looked at the relationship between anti-Israel and antisemitic views, and found that while anti-Israel views are not, as a general rule, antisemitic, the stronger a person’s anti-Israel views, the more likely they are to also hold antisemitic attitudes. Here’s the page where you can download the full report: > **[Antisemitism in contemporary Great Britain](https://www.jpr.org.uk/reports/antisemitism-contemporary-great-britain)** This survey is from 2017, so well before Hamas’s attack on Israel and the war in Gaza. Both Islamophobia and antisemitism have unfortunately increased since then, and there has been a lot more attention paid to the latter in the last year and a half. > [@DSeid](#): > > I am very conscious that right now is just right now. But this is where that hierarchy comes in - they may come for me, and the best way to prevent that is to do the little we can when they come for those who are not me, and not do nothing then. It is not only social justice to care about them; it is _informed best interest_. If they succeed coming for them then me and mine are somewhere next on the list. If they succeed for the current other then it is only a matter of time until they will come for me. The rest of my post is about the UK. But I did see one startling headline not long ago: according to a recent study in the US, Black and Hispanic Americans agreed with antisemitic statements at similar levels to White Americans who identified themselves as alt-right. > **[Antisemitic Attitudes among Young Black and Hispanic Americans | Journal of...](https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-race-ethnicity-and-politics/article/abs/antisemitic-attitudes-among-young-black-and-hispanic-americans/5465F2124BC3D44B40521D2CD000D023)** > > Antisemitic Attitudes among Young Black and Hispanic Americans - Volume 8 Issue 1 The US is on track to be majority-minority within 20 years. The former majority will become a minority; the ‘they’ who may come for you is not fixed. Minorities are not just objects to be protected, they are subjects who can and do act, and whose own beliefs matter. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2025, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/185 "2025-05-13T16:22:55Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > The rest of my post is about the UK. But I did see one startling headline not long ago: according to a recent study in the US, Black and Hispanic Americans agreed with antisemitic statements at similar levels to White Americans who identified themselves as alt-right. As a young man who had recently entered the workforce, it was an eye opening experience listening to my Black coworkers talking about Jews and other groups during lunchtime conversations. I was under the mistaken belief that being a member of a marginalized group would have made them a bit more careful about engaging in stereotypes, but I was very wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2025, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/186 "2025-05-13T16:39:21Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > They also looked at the relationship between anti-Israel and antisemitic views, and found that while anti-Israel views are not, as a general rule, antisemitic, the stronger a person’s anti-Israel views, the more likely they are to also hold antisemitic attitudes. Sure–but that implies a backwards cause-and-effect relationship. If you’re antisemitic, the chances that you’ll dislike Israel–a country founded by and for Jewish people–approach 100%. Whereas if you dislike Israel’s government and policies, the chances that you’re antisemitic are nowhere near 100%. There are going to be very few pro-Israel antisemites, whereas there are plenty of non-antisemitic critics of Israel. Nevertheless, because ALL antisemites are in the anti-Israel group, the concentration of antisemites in the anti-Israel group will be higher than the concentration of antisemites in the pro-Israel group. The exceptions to this dynamic will probably be concentrated among American apocalyptic evangelicals, who believe that the antichrist’s return will be presaged by the reestablishment of Israel, bringing about the events of Revelation. These folks will be pro-Israel and antisemitic, but I’m not sure how major a force they are in UK society. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2025, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/187 "2025-05-13T17:26:15Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > > > In the USA it’s still almost entirely on the right > > Really no. Just not an accurate statement. > > That’s the relevant point to this thread. There’s more a blind eye to its presence on the Left. And it is often expressed differently. It definitely is there. As @Left_Hand_of_Dorkness Pointed, there are a lot of Right wingers that pull the seemingly contradictory “Support Israel” and “we can also be antisemitic” [https://www.adl.org/racists-converge-charlottesville](https://www.adl.org/racists-converge-charlottesville) > “Jews will not replace us!” This was one of the rallying cries of the white supremacists who converged on Charlottesville, VA in August 2017. While the sights and sounds of their rallies shocked the nation, they came as no surprise to ADL. Our vigilance in tracking extremist groups had enabled us to warn law enforcement of what to expect when the rally was announced. The bigger problem is that it is from the right’s leadership where we see too much sympathy for the fascists. [https://www.adl.org/resources/press-release/adl-condemns-president-trumps-remarks](https://www.adl.org/resources/press-release/adl-condemns-president-trumps-remarks) > New York, NY, August 15, 2017 … Jonathan A. Greenblatt, CEO and National Director of the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), released the following statement on President Trump’s remarks today: > > We have a history in this country of presidents standing up to bigotry and hate. Today, for the second time in four days, President Trump did the opposite. > > President Trump went beyond the pale today in equating racist white supremacists in Charlottesville with counter protesters who were there to stand up against hate. Let us not forget. The entire Unite the Right rally was built on racial and conspiratorial anti-Semitism. Marchers threw Nazi salutes as they waved swastika flags, proudly wore swastika pins and shirts, and shouted ‘sieg heil!’ ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2025, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/188 "2025-05-13T17:27:06Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > an unwillingness to address the issue when it occurs in minority groups This may seem like a quibble but it’s not. I don’t think it is “unwillingness” per se so much as not choosing a heavy handed tactic. Tactically keeping an alliance together is is the higher priority. Blacks and others have endorse many antisemitic tropes for a very long time. It is not new. I don’t think it is increasing. Working together is in mutual best interest anyway. The hope is progress gets made. Right now and for the foreseeable future though, the ones coming after the others are the fascists in charge. I’ll work with those who hold some beliefs about Jews in general against that greater evil gladly. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2025, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/189 "2025-05-13T17:32:18Z")
I’ll endorse this. As a Jew, if a non visible and non practicing one, I know that the real and most significant enemies of Jews are the same as they’ve always been - religious extremists and white fascists. Not African Americans or other largely-Democratic minorities. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2025, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/190 "2025-05-13T18:23:27Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > This may seem like a quibble but it’s not. I don’t think it is “unwillingness” per se so much as not choosing a heavy handed tactic. Tactically keeping an alliance together is is the higher priority. i.e. They’re unwilling because they fear alienating allies and harming their cause. That’s understandable, a lot of groups are willing to ignore or even hide the bad behavior of their members for fear of harming the cause. That doesn’t really make it okay though. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2025, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/191 "2025-05-13T18:38:14Z")
I’ll bring it back to intersectionality. The identity of white fascist is a threat even if the antisemitism is not evident. Even if they say they are against antisemitism. The intersectionality of Black or Hispanic and beliefs in various antisemitic tropes of Jewish power in banking, media, so on… not much of a threat. Is it “okay”? No. But I can live with not okay. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2025, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/192 "2025-05-13T23:13:29Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > This may seem like a quibble but it’s not. I don’t think it is “unwillingness” per se so much as not choosing a heavy handed tactic. Tactically keeping an alliance together is is the higher priority. > > Blacks and others have endorse many antisemitic tropes for a very long time. It is not new. I don’t think it is increasing. Working together is in mutual best interest anyway. The hope is progress gets made. Right now and for the foreseeable future though, the ones coming after the others are the fascists in charge. I’ll work with those who hold some beliefs about Jews in general against that greater evil gladly. I don’t understand why you didn’t give this answer in the first place, instead of claiming it was just anti-Israel attitudes rather than antisemitism. But fine. If this behaviour from the left is indeed cynical pandering rather than ideological blindness, that makes it **much worse** in my eyes, and left-wingers more culpable for it. > [@DSeid](#): > > I’ll bring it back to intersectionality. > > The identity of white fascist is a threat even if the antisemitism is not evident. Even if they say they are against antisemitism. > > The intersectionality of Black or Hispanic and beliefs in various antisemitic tropes of Jewish power in banking, media, so on… not much of a threat. Is it “okay”? No. But I can live with not okay. > [@DemonTree](#): > > The issue is that specific cultures have particular issues with antisemitism (and same with sexism, LGBTQ issues etc), and I see the left, and mainstream societies that have been greatly influenced by social justice ideas, refusing to address this, or denying it altogether. Maybe out of hesitancy to criticise a ‘more oppressed group’, maybe because they are (validly) worried about creating stigma against that group, **maybe because the group lacks institutional power so they (wrongly) think that the group’s beliefs are not harmful to others**. So, the bolded option is the correct one? Earlier in this thread, someone posted a study claiming endorsement of ‘hostile sexism’ correlated significantly with voting for Trump in Latina and Asian American women. Unfortunately, they didn’t do the same analysis for male voters, but I have seen it claimed elsewhere that Trump’s anti-immigrant invective was a significant reason Latinos supported him. Minorities are perfectly capable of voting for and supporting the fascists because of their own prejudices, the ones that you strategically declined to address. Fascists are able to do the electoral mathematics, and to strategically choose scapegoats that will allow them to put together a majority coalition. And as I also said earlier, left-wing hypocrisy in ignoring and excusing prejudice in less privileged groups is a significant factor driving disillusionment with the left among young men, and among white voters. Far from leading to a harmonious and tolerant society, racial tensions have increased, there is an alarming surge in misogyny among young men, and support for LGBT rights has started falling for the first time in a couple of decades. And a reinvigorated Trump has been reelected, the biggest threat to democracy in America in your lifetime. Please, please reconsider your strategy. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2025, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/193 "2025-05-14T00:03:17Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > instead of claiming it was just anti-Israel attitudes rather than antisemitism Huh? Not what I tried to say. The conflation and confusion is much more multifaceted than that. And this is about a completely different point. But whatever. > [@DemonTree](#): > > So, the bolded option is the correct one? Not in an absolute sense no. In a relative sense to some degree. Look I had a father who was in his explicit beliefs racist. But in his actions he treated everyone fairly and respectfully. So I don’t really care _too_ much about beliefs that aren’t said to my face and that are not acted upon. Of course actions powered institutionally is the most worrisome and it is not the only one. But the Black American who believes some trope about Jews and who does no actions that harm based on those explicit beliefs? They are of less threat than the person in any level of power who acts in harmful ways in complete self denial of their implicit antisemitism and racism. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2025, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/194 "2025-05-14T00:12:56Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > left-wing hypocrisy in ignoring and excusing prejudice in less privileged groups is a significant factor driving disillusionment with the left among young men, and among white voters. I don’t agree. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2025, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/195 "2025-05-14T01:03:13Z")
I mean, it’s true that calling the left hypocritical in allegedly “ignoring and excusing prejudice in less privileged groups” is a significant strategy among conservatives attempting to “driv[e] disillusionment with the left among young men, and among white voters”. It’s just another iteration of the standard decades-old right-wing accusation that liberals are “coddling minorities”. ---
**Author:** ![Zoobi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/13edae/32.png) [@Zoobi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoobi)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2025, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/196 "2025-05-14T01:15:38Z")
As they say: > [@What could the Harris campaign have done differently?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-the-harris-campaign-have-done-differently/1009798/325): > > The Democrats have followed the strategy of championing oppressed minorities, focusing on ever tinier and more aberrant fringe groups, to the point of diminishing returns. First African-Americans, then women, then gays, and now various flavors of non-binaries. I’m not sure there’s anywhere left to go except for maybe incest practitioners. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2025, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/197 "2025-05-14T01:50:42Z")
Interesting take there on women as a more “tiny and aberrant fringe group” even than African-Americans. 🤣 ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2025, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/198 "2025-05-14T04:43:33Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > > [@DemonTree](#): > > > > left-wing hypocrisy in ignoring and excusing prejudice in less privileged groups is a significant factor driving disillusionment with the left among young men, and among white voters. > > I don’t agree. Yeah, i don’t, either. It’s an age-old strategy of the powerful to try to turn the powerless against each other. But i don’t think “Black antisemitism” is a factor in how young white men feel about “the left”. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2025, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/199 "2025-05-14T07:49:22Z")
There’s also the difference between hating a government, hating a nationality, and hating a country. Hating the Israeli government, its members and its policies is a perfectly legitimate political belief. Hating Israelis as a group of people is a form of bigotry, regardless of your opinion of other Jews. Hating Israel, _the country_… that’s a trickier question, which I can’t really answer here. It’s not just Israel, of course. Take the Russia-Ukraine war: saying “I hate Putin” - perfectly fine. “I hate Russians” - bigotry. “I hate Russia” - can go either way. Either way, people should be careful with what they say. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2025, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/200 "2025-05-14T08:02:50Z")
Then there are my friends who hate Russia. They are refugees of the Soviet Disunion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016.md?page=11)