# Intersectionality and the Oppression Pyramid **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2025, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016 "2025-05-07T16:38:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2025, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/261 "2025-06-28T23:39:25Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > And that makes it okay, does it? The number of ‘liberals’ who’ve defended cancellation, on this board and elsewhere, rather implies the conservatives were doing nothing wrong. A false equivalency. Persecuting innocent victims isn’t the same thing as avoiding or calling out predators and bigots. There is no symmetry here. The Right is _always_ a force of ignorance, irrationality, cruelty, malice, and tyranny; the Left is not. The Left can be good or bad, right or wrong; the Right is _always_ in the wrong. Factually and morally. If Sauron was real, he’d be right wing, and he’d fit right in. "Malice, cruelty and the will to dominate all life"is a succinct description of what the Right has always been about. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2025, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/262 "2025-06-29T00:04:13Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > There is no symmetry here. The Right is _always_ a force of ignorance, irrationality, cruelty, malice, and tyranny; the Left is not. The Left can be good or bad, right or wrong; the Right is _always_ in the wrong. Factually and morally. So, to pick one example, Angela Merkel was a force for ignorance, irrationality, cruelty, malice, and tyranny in your opinion? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2025, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/263 "2025-06-29T00:34:08Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > So, to pick one example, Angela Merkel was a force for ignorance, irrationality, cruelty, malice, and tyranny in your opinion? She wasn’t one of their neo-Nazis, no. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2025, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/264 "2025-06-29T01:51:22Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Probably. But in civilised society, we’ve decided this sort of thing is not acceptable. We need to do the same for female-coded indirect aggression, which is more covert but similarly harmful. I agree. Except apparently civilized society stops outside the internet. I wish it weren’t so. > [@DemonTree](#): > > And that makes it okay, does it? The number of ‘liberals’ who’ve defended cancellation, on this board and elsewhere, rather implies the conservatives were doing nothing wrong. I suppose we could have a thread to discuss what is the difference between “consequences for your actions” and “cancel culture”. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2025, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/265 "2025-06-29T01:53:08Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Lol. I used to post in a different forum, and sometimes the men would start competing over who had the best car, or watch, or whatever. Always seemed quite idiotic. > > It’s an interesting idea, and would explain why the men who say they ‘can’t read signals’ have such a bad time trying to date. That is an interesting premise. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2025, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/266 "2025-06-29T07:27:35Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > She wasn’t one of their neo-Nazis, no. So she’s not a _true_ ~~scotsman~~ conservative? If when you write about how horrible and evil the right is, you actually mean neo-Nazis, you should really say neo-Nazis. Because billions of ordinary people identify as being on the right (conservative) and vote for right-of-center parties - surely you don’t want to accuse all of them of basically being Hitler? > [@Irishman](#): > > I agree. Except apparently civilized society stops outside the internet. I wish it weren’t so. ? The internet is far less civilised than real life. It’s a place where people frequently forget the person behind the screen is person, and indulge all their worst impulses. Real life is not always as good as we might wish, but I think there is far more of a consensus that direct aggression is bad and should not be tolerated/rewarded than there is for indirect aggression. > [@Irishman](#): > > I suppose we could have a thread to discuss what is the difference between “consequences for your actions” and “cancel culture”. Basically this: > [@Babale](#): > > There are no bad tactics, only bad targets Contrary to @Der_Trihs , it’s obvious that, for example, many people blacklisted by McCarthy were in fact communists. And communism has killed 100m people. The people ostracised by conservative Christians for being atheists or questioning core beliefs also genuinely were atheists, or questioning those beliefs. For leftists, questioning left-wing beliefs makes you a bad person (never mind that those beliefs may have changed by this time next year). For conservative Christians, questioning the existence of god, or other Christian beliefs makes you a bad person. The difference is entirely in the belief system of the beholder. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2025, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/267 "2025-06-29T10:46:38Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > So she’s not a _true_ ~~scotsman~~ conservative? Conservative and right wing are entirely different things. The Democrats are conservative; the Republicans are right wing. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2025, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/268 "2025-06-29T11:30:42Z")
Yes, the politics in the US is pretty far to the right of the politics in most of Europe. By and large, European “conservatives” would be liberal members of the Democratic party in the the US. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2025, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/269 "2025-06-29T18:14:20Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Sorry, I forgot about replying to this. It sounds interesting. Will you be posting on the board once it’s published? Sure will. I’ve been working on it so long I probably won’t shut up about it when it’s finally finished. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2025, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/270 "2025-06-29T23:49:12Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Conservative and right wing are entirely different things. The Democrats are conservative; the Republicans are right wing. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > Yes, the politics in the US is pretty far to the right of the politics in most of Europe. By and large, European “conservatives” would be liberal members of the Democratic party in the the US. @Irishman said ‘conservative’ in his post, and I said ‘conservative’ in my reply, and @Der_Trihs replied saying ‘right-wing bad’. So are we talking about the same people or not? The way I understand the terms, conservatives are right-wing (Merkel’s party is described as centre-right on Wikipedia, which seems correct) but the opposite is not necessarily the case. The alt-right and neoreactionaries are not conservative, for example. ‘Liberal’ is even worse, since Americans seem to use it to mean centre-left, or sometimes any kind of left-winger, even those who are decidedly illiberal (a distinguishing feature of what I think of as the woke left, but tankies are also illiberal). It all makes communication very difficult. * * * > [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > Sure will. I’ve been working on it so long I probably won’t shut up about it when it’s finally finished. Cool, I’ll keep an eye out for it. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2025, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/271 "2025-06-30T00:38:35Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > ? The internet is far less civilised than real life. It’s a place where people frequently forget the person behind the screen is person, and indulge all their worst impulses. Sorry, I meant civilized society ends where the internet begins. > [@DemonTree](#): > > @Irishman said ‘conservative’ in his post, and I said ‘conservative’ in my reply, and @Der_Trihs replied saying ‘right-wing bad’. So are we talking about the same people or not? Yes, the terminology conundrum is perplexing. If I’m talking about Ted Cruz, John Cornyn (Texas Senators), Mitch McConnell, and Mike Johnson, I could call them “Republicans” for their political party name, or call them “conservative” for the American dichotomy terms used for the political divide. If I start talking about MAGA, even though they are Republican and in the conservative party, they don’t actually hold _conservative_ political views. They are autocratic, nationalist, and oppression of minorities. Yet the people who hold those views consider themselves conservatives and tend to hold conservative social ideas. So “conservative” can apply or not apply anywhere in that spectrum depending upon the speaker and/or listener. Similarly, a Democrat in this country is considered a liberal by our standards and are left of the other party even though in other countries you can’t be a liberal unless you are full socialist or even communist. Even American “progressives” seem less so than European ones. But tell an American conservative that you are a liberal or progressive and they will equate you with an outright communist based solely on hyperbole. The American left does not have a very big communist presence. And before we get a little bothsiderism going on, yes liberals are accusing a lot of the right of being fascists, but the difference is that the policies and actions of the political right are actually oppression and violence and anti-democracy. And those views are decidedly mainstream for the right. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2025, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/272 "2025-06-30T00:41:41Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Yes, the terminology conundrum is perplexing. Yes. Different people mean very different things by the same words when they describe where people are politically. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2025, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/273 "2025-06-30T00:41:58Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > If I start talking about MAGA, even though they are Republican and in the conservative party, they don’t actually hold _conservative_ political views. They are autocratic, nationalist, and oppression of minorities. Also, they aren’t trying to “conserve” anything, they stand for destruction and radical _change_ to society. They’re radical reactionaries, not conservatives. The Democrats are the conservatives, they stand for the status quo. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2025, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/274 "2025-06-30T00:48:46Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > And that makes it okay, does it? The number of ‘liberals’ who’ve defended cancellation, on this board and elsewhere, rather implies the conservatives were doing nothing wrong. Well, yes. There’s nothing inherently wrong with “cancelling,” and virtually nobody _actually_ thinks there is, either. “Canceling” is only bad when it’s done against something they agree with. Otherwise, it’s a “boycott,” or “consequences,” or “I’m just speaking my mind.” But almost everyone has a line where they think it’s okay for someone to suffer some form of consequence for expressing a sufficiently vile opinion. The only disagreement is where the line should be drawn. > [@Babale](#): > > But it is fitting that you put “liberal” in scare quotes there, this isn’t a “liberal” idea. Really? It’s a non-governmental, market-oriented tactic. “I don’t like what you’re saying, but rather than pass a law against you saying it, I’m just going to refuse to give you my money, and I’ll try to persuade other people to not give you their money, either.” What could be more classically liberal than that? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2025, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/275 "2025-06-30T01:12:24Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > What could be more classically liberal than that? Classical liberalism includes the idea of free speech as a positive good that benefits society, not just in the narrow sense of supporting the US first amendment. Attempting to punish individual people for exercising their right to free speech is not liberal. > [@Miller](#): > > Well, yes. There’s nothing inherently wrong with “cancelling,” and virtually nobody _actually_ thinks there is, either. “Canceling” is only bad when it’s done against something they agree with. Probably there will always be some ideas so extreme that we decide it’s acceptable to ‘cancel’ them. But a wider field of ideas - greater freedom of thought - is good for society and for individuals, and narrowing that field - especially trying to suppress ideas that are widely held and/or have substantial evidence in their favour - is bad for society, especially in the long term. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2025, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/276 "2025-06-30T01:25:38Z")
“Canceling” (if public criticism/boycott, and urging others to join in is canceling) is a tool, and like any tool, it can be used for good or for ill. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2025, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/277 "2025-06-30T01:41:53Z")
The issue is that if you don’t allow ideas to be expressed, you don’t _know_ if it’s for good or ill. Legalising gay sex was ‘obviously’ bad and immoral, until some people were brave enough to advocate for it and change minds. If you crush anyone trying to make the argument, that never happens. That’s the conservative side. The left-wing one is to propose sweeping changes to society, and then silence anyone trying to argue against the new ideas or point out negative consequences. Then you go ahead with them and people suffer. Allowing free speech is a major part of how you _find out_ what’s true, and how to best run a society. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2025, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/278 "2025-06-30T02:04:04Z")
You can’t “cancel” someone for their speech until you’ve heard their speech. Well, i suppose you could, but that’s not generally what’s meant by “cancel culture”. Is it okay to say, “you are in favor of torturing puppies, so i don’t want to invite you over to dinner”? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2025, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/279 "2025-06-30T06:32:05Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Classical liberalism includes the idea of free speech as a positive good that benefits society, not just in the narrow sense of supporting the US first amendment. Attempting to punish individual people for exercising their right to free speech is not liberal. Free from threats of violence, or from government imposition, sure. But free from market forces? Never. > [@DemonTree](#): > > Probably there will always be some ideas so extreme that we decide it’s acceptable to ‘cancel’ them. And that’s the end of the debate, isn’t it? Because you’ve agreed that canceling “extreme” opinions is acceptable. But what counts as “extreme?” Who makes that decision? And how do ideas move from the “socially acceptable” category to the “extreme” category? > [@DemonTree](#): > > The issue is that if you don’t allow ideas to be expressed, you don’t _know_ if it’s for good or ill. Legalising gay sex was ‘obviously’ bad and immoral, until some people were brave enough to advocate for it and change minds. If you crush anyone trying to make the argument, that never happens. Okay, but the idea that gay sex is “obviously bad and immoral” - that one we can cancel, right? Because it certainly had more than enough time to make its case. Or do we need to hold the door open for the possibility that gay sex might actually be bad and immoral, and we might need to ban it again? > [@DemonTree](#): > > That’s the conservative side. Sorry, I’m not clear what part of the previous paragraph was “the conservative side.” > [@DemonTree](#): > > The left-wing one is to propose sweeping changes to society, and then silence anyone trying to argue against the new ideas or point out negative consequences. Then you go ahead with them and people suffer. Sure, the way we all suffered after the success of the gay marriage movement, or the Civil Rights movement, or Women’s Suffrage. We should have paid more attention to the negative consequences of those things, I guess? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2025, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/280 "2025-06-30T06:47:32Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > The issue is that if you don’t allow ideas to be expressed, you don’t _know_ if it’s for good or ill. In many cases we _do,_ because we’ve seen the results, or because the ideas in question are known to be false. Which describes pretty much the entirely of right wing beliefs; they are factually wrong or demonstrably harmful. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016.md?page=15)