# Intersectionality and the Oppression Pyramid **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2025, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016 "2025-05-07T16:38:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2025, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/101 "2025-05-11T14:27:48Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > I think it’s a _perfect_ description of the way that (as just one of multiple examples that came up _in this thread_) @HMS_Irruncible was > > It seems like a fine description of how that poster views things. And it is a poor metaphor that rests on a simplistic characterization of intersectionality that inspires conflict. If it’s a good description of how people whose thoughts align with @HMS_Irruncible’s view the issue, why is it a _poor metaphor_? I don’t think the _metaphor_ is simplistic. I think the way we treat people when we follow the logic outlined in HMS’s posts is simplistic, and the metaphor correctly points that out. The conflict comes from _treating people in this way_, not from _pointing out the treatment_. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2025, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/102 "2025-05-11T14:31:06Z")
@Spice_Weasel 's post is excellent, and she talks about all the issues that arise when people try to rank all the disadvantages. She gives excellent reasons for why “oppression pyramid” is a damaging metaphor. Also, she and i quite obviously travel in very different circles. > [@Alessan](#): > > And in a conversation about poverty, should the voice of a poor white man take precedence over that of a middle-class black queer woman? Okay, I’m happy to say that we should listen to the poor white man in a conversation about poverty. The middle class black queer woman might have useful advise about how to deal with the issues (and powerful cishet white men _often_ have good advice on how to actually, you know, change laws and stuff) but on the topic of how poverty affects people, you should listen to poor people. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2025, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/103 "2025-05-11T14:32:41Z")
People who think like that are applying that as their metaphor and it is a poor one. OTOH people who think that there are no degrees of privilege and lack thereof for different groups and identities are naive. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2025, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/104 "2025-05-11T14:54:25Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > OTOH people who think that there are no degrees of privilege and lack thereof for different groups and identities are naive. What does this mean exactly? Does it mean there is a sense in which > [@DemonTree](#): > > overall white people are most privileged, then Asians, Latinos, and black people are most oppressed ? Because my personal experience is that when I try to point out that there are circumstances in which eg white people or men may be at a disadvantage, the response is that overall and in wider society, white people and men do have more privilege. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2025, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/105 "2025-05-11T14:54:27Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > People who think like that are applying that as their metaphor and it is a poor one. I thought you meant that _calling that behavior_ an oppression pyramid is a bad metaphor. If you meant that _using that framework to begin with_ is a bad idea then I am not sure where our point of disagreement is. > [@DSeid](#): > > OTOH people who think that there are no degrees of privilege and lack thereof for different groups and identities are naive. Our disagreement certainly isn’t _here_, either. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2025, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/106 "2025-05-11T15:05:29Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Okay, I’m happy to say that we should listen to the poor white man in a conversation about poverty. The middle class black queer woman might have useful advise about how to deal with the issues (and powerful cishet white men _often_ have good advice on how to actually, you know, change laws and stuff) but on the topic of how poverty affects people, you should listen to poor people. Glad to hear it. I’m not accusing everyone who supports social justice of following this paradigm, but it really is pretty common. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > @Spice_Weasel 's post is excellent, and she talks about all the issues that arise when people try to rank all the disadvantages. She gives excellent reasons for why “oppression pyramid” is a damaging metaphor. Her post shows the damage from progressives trying to rank disadvantages, and acting accordingly. Will you accept that this is a real phenomenon that we should be able to name and talk about, even if you still disagree on how common it is or about specific claims? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2025, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/107 "2025-05-11T15:11:34Z")
I think you can talk about it without using terms that encourage that way of thinking. I note that @Spice_Weasel only barely used the term, to tie her discussion to the title, after clearly describing real problems using words that accurately described those real problems. Using language that encourages strife and misunderstanding is playing into the bigots’ hands. IMHO. Also, i hang out with a lot of progressives. This might be a common problem, but it’s not a universal problem among progressives. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2025, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/108 "2025-05-11T15:31:15Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Using language that encourages strife and misunderstanding is playing into the bigots’ hands. IMHO. IMHO, the underlying action is what _really_ plays into bigots’ hands. Not to mention, the underlying action is bigoted in and of itself. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > Also, i hang out with a lot of progressives. This might be a common problem, but it’s not a universal problem among progressives. I spend lots of times around progressives, too; I agree, it’s a common but not universal problem. I have recently started spending more time around conservatives (people I picked out to be closed with trend liberal to progressive; people who entered my life because they have kids my daughters’ ages are a mixed bag). Classic racism is a common but not universal problem. It doesn’t mean it doesn’t need to be addressed. ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2025, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/109 "2025-05-11T15:47:02Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Maybe a big part of the problem is that progressive circles lack sufficient tools, and social support, for recognizing when someone is taking a valid, valuable structure and perverting it to manipulate and control a group I think is the case with all kinds of groups, from families to schools to politics to workplaces and beyond. We are not often taught the skills to come to decisions and take actions in a reasonable, conscientious way. In a society built on hierarchies of wealth and power and authority, from the family to schools to politics to the workplace, a lot of transactions seem to be zero sum games and getting what we need and want becomes a struggle against others. It is no surprise that groups of people who want to change things are also caught up in this, however much their principles would dictate a better approach. Add in the hostility of people and organizations and groups that want to keep and reinforce hierarchy and authority, and again, not surprising that progressives too often use the tools lying around. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2025, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/110 "2025-05-11T16:13:39Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > What does this mean exactly? Does it mean there is a sense in which … No. It means what it says. Not a simple pyramid of pain. Real people are not any single identity, and all of those who share one aspect of identity have their own complete selves. To flesh out. I, a white male heterosexual Jewish American, can however appreciate that antisemitism exists and be concerned about it, and simultaneously recognize that in this particular country at this particular point in time it is not the most pressing issue and that legal residents, not white in particular, being persecuted under the false banner of fighting antisemitism is a bigger problem. I can fight against antisemitism while also appreciating the privilege I as an individual have and acknowledge that right now it shouldn’t be the number one issue to address. Make sense? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2025, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/111 "2025-05-11T16:22:08Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Also, i hang out with a lot of progressives. This might be a common problem, but it’s not a universal problem among progressives. It may be most common online. Most of my experiences with it were on blogs (back when I agreed with most of it) and on social media more recently. I’ve had plenty of progressives earnestly explain things to me that when I repeat them here, I’m told are a right-wing fantasy. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > I think you can talk about it without using terms that encourage that way of thinking. I note that @Spice_Weasel only barely used the term, to tie her discussion to the title, after clearly describing real problems using words that accurately described those real problems. When I tried to describe what I meant, your first response was the same as everyone else’s: that it’s something conservatives nefariously invented. So is it really the name that’s the problem here? It’s useful to have a shorthand term for a set of related problems. I’m not wedded to this one, but I’m extremely unpersuaded by any argument that these problems shouldn’t be named at all. That seems a lot like trying to sweep them under the carpet. * * * Here’s another example I gave earlier in the thread, which no one responded to: > [@DemonTree](#): > > It means that under the ‘rules’ embraced by progressives, some people are more equal than others, and men get the short end of the stick. For example, when black kids do worse in education, the response is that education needs to be changed to fix this. When women are under-represented in STEM subjects at college, the response is that we need to change the culture of STEM to make it more welcoming to women. But boys have been doing worse than girls in education for years now. Men are under-represented at college, and the gap has been widening. But when this is brought up, the response almost universally is that it’s boys and men who need to change. > > In theory, we should be able to note that most teachers and education professionals are women, especially at the younger ages, so it’s pretty plausible the culture they create is more welcoming to and supportive of girls, even if wider culture may still favour men. And we should be able to suggest ways to change this to help boys achieve on a par with girls. But in practice, this doesn’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2025, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/112 "2025-05-11T16:34:27Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Men are under-represented at college, This is fairly recent and may reflect that men have been more able to get higher-paying jobs that do not require university degrees than women can get. For example, where I live, men have about 95% of the jobs in construction. Women are about 95% of the nurses, but that requires a college degree. Construction does not. And union construction jobs tend to pay better and have better conditions than union nursing jobs here. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2025, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/113 "2025-05-11T16:39:45Z")
I would say that the problem you are trying to describe is not actually the attempt to jam all kinds of privilege (or lack thereof) into a single hierarchy, but the unwillingness of groups to listen to people who have too much privilege. So any words you choose to use to describe the problem ought to focus on that, and not on the actual attempt at ranking. And i still think that the idea of a single hierarchy is something mostly pushed by conservatives, to discredit the idea of oppression at all. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2025, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/114 "2025-05-11T16:42:04Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > It may be most common online. I suspect so. None of those I know in the real world think that simplistically. > [@DemonTree](#): > > it’s pretty plausible the culture they create is more welcoming to and supportive of girls Not really. That has been the same when men were the main people getting college and advanced degrees and now. It isn’t what changed. There have been multiple threads on this subject. No, I do not think “the response almost universally is that it’s boys and men who need to change” … seriously. Nor is it simply stated “when black kids do worse in education, the response is that education needs to be changed to fix this.” Usually there is more discussion about institutional and systemic contributions … not the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2025, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/115 "2025-05-11T16:58:26Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > It’s useful to have a shorthand term for a set of related problems. I’m not wedded to this one, but I’m extremely unpersuaded by any argument that these problems shouldn’t be named at all. How about, “inappropriate considerations of privilege” ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2025, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/116 "2025-05-11T18:24:55Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I would say that the problem you are trying to describe is not actually the attempt to jam all kinds of privilege (or lack thereof) into a single hierarchy, but the unwillingness of groups to listen to people who have too much privilege. You can’t really address a problem without understanding the underlying cause. In this particular case, the unwillingness to listen is predicated on having constructed a hierarchy of privilege, a pyramid if you will, where the voices of those who are marginalized are elevated and those considered having more privilege are often dismissed or even actively told to remain silent. “Check your privilege” is an invitation to shut up rather than a suggestion to think about things through a perspective other than your own. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2025, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/117 "2025-05-11T18:29:33Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > “Check your privilege” is an invitation to shut up It has been _turned_ into that through rhetorical abuse, but it’s not what it should mean. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2025, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/118 "2025-05-11T18:40:59Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > It has been _turned_ into that through rhetorical abuse. I agree. It’s sad, because privilege theory and intersectionality are valuable tools when examining the complexities of social interactions. Privilege is a difficult concept for some people to grasp, and it becomes even more difficult when the word is wielded as a club in conversations. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2025, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/119 "2025-05-11T18:42:05Z")
Well, hierarchy is a better word than pyramid, because it automatically implies that we’re taking about a social construct, not some actual thing. And it’s a better description, too. (Are you meaning to say there are more people lower in that pyramid? Because that’s my first image when i think of pyramids.) I still think the problem is better described as > [@puzzlegal](#): > > inappropriate considerations of privilege though. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2025, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/120 "2025-05-11T18:45:12Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Well, hierarchy is a better word than pyramid, because it automatically implies that we’re taking about a social construct, not some actual thing. Is anyone confused about there being a large triangular structure called the Pyramid of Oppression? How is that any more confusing than the Food Pyramid? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016.md?page=7)