# Interviewer-\>Dawkins: Name a process which increases the genome's information content **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 27, 2007, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interviewer-dawkins-name-a-process-which-increases-the-genomes-information-content/405722 "2007-05-27T18:16:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![alterego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6bbea6/32.png) [@alterego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alterego)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2007, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interviewer-dawkins-name-a-process-which-increases-the-genomes-information-content/405722/1 "2007-05-27T18:16:27Z")
There is a [video on YouTube](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaKryi3605g) where Dawkins is asked the following question, and is presumed to be stumped: > [@Interviewer](#): > > Can you give an example of a genetic mutation or an evolutionary process which can be seen to increase the information in the genome? This is a flawed question. The fallacy that the interviewer falls prey to is assuming that a single change in a base pair such as a genetic deletion has some measurable causal effect on the overall “information content” of the genome. First of all, he doesn’t even define what he means by information content. IANAGeneticist, but if I were to define the information content of the genome, I would go to information theory. The information content of the genome is best measured by the amount of surprise that the organism encounters in his environment. If he is less surprised, there is more information. If he is more surprised, there is less. There is clearly no objective measure of this. The best we have is the litmus test of natural selection, but even then, the survival of the organism could be due to a completely unrelated factor in the environment. This video is Christian propaganda, and I doubt the interviewer could have answered it, despite cleverly ordering the shots to make Dawkins look stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Rico](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rico/32/3582_2.png) [@Rico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rico)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2007, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interviewer-dawkins-name-a-process-which-increases-the-genomes-information-content/405722/2 "2007-05-27T18:20:37Z")
\ Moved to Great Debates as per OPs request. \ ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2007, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interviewer-dawkins-name-a-process-which-increases-the-genomes-information-content/405722/3 "2007-05-27T18:37:21Z")
Wow, the comments in that link are scary. I read the first 3 pages, and not one person challenged the creationist viewpoint. First of all, it’s not clear to me that the video hasn’t been edited. Dawkins asks the interviewer to stop recording, and when the camera comes back on, he appears to be answering a completely different question. In fact, how do we know that isn’t just edited clips of Dawkins with the interview dubbed on top? It’s pretty clear to me that if you get a mutation that adds a gene that codes for new protein, then you’ve added “information”. But not every mutation is necessarily going to add “information”. You may get a mutation that just says “make more of protein XYZ”, or “make four legs instead of two”. I wouldn’t consider either of those to have added “information”. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2007, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interviewer-dawkins-name-a-process-which-increases-the-genomes-information-content/405722/4 "2007-05-27T18:59:01Z")
[Dawkin’s response read.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7q8-8tG-1TI&mode=related&search=) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2007, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interviewer-dawkins-name-a-process-which-increases-the-genomes-information-content/405722/5 "2007-05-27T19:06:54Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Wow, the comments in that link are scary. I read the first 3 pages, and not one person challenged the creationist viewpoint. [/QUOTE] And you will never see any negative responses because JJjayco is censoring all negative(and all questioning) posts ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2007, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interviewer-dawkins-name-a-process-which-increases-the-genomes-information-content/405722/6 "2007-05-27T19:59:25Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] And you will never see any negative responses because JJjayco is censoring all negative(and all questioning) posts [/QUOTE] Funny, I hadn’t realized you _could_ do that. It defeats the entire purpose of comments. I tried sending an email to JJjayco but he only accepts messages from people on his friends list, which I guess is at least consistent. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2007, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interviewer-dawkins-name-a-process-which-increases-the-genomes-information-content/405722/7 "2007-05-27T20:14:44Z")
You can find Dawkins’s written response [here.](http://www.skeptics.com.au/articles/dawkins.htm) It’s a decent summary of information theory. > [@](#): > > Perhaps the main lesson we should learn from Pringle is that the information content of a biological system is another name for its complexity. Therefore the creationist challenge with which we began is tantamount to the standard challenge to explain how biological complexity can evolve from simpler antecedents, one that I have devoted three books to answering (The Blind Watchmaker, River Out of Eden, Climbing Mount Improbable) and I do not propose to repeat their contents here. The “information challenge” turns out to be none other than our old friend: “How could something as complex as an eye evolve?” It is just dressed up in fancy mathematical language - perhaps in an attempt to bamboozle. Or perhaps those who ask it have already bamboozled themselves, and don’t realise that it is the same old - and thoroughly answered - question. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2007, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interviewer-dawkins-name-a-process-which-increases-the-genomes-information-content/405722/8 "2007-05-27T20:17:32Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] And you will never see any negative responses because JJjayco is censoring all negative(and all questioning) posts [/QUOTE] That makes me feel better. It seemed really odd that not one person viewed that video and had something negative to say about creationism. Was that supposed to be the famous “evolution violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics” line that creationists like to use? ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2007, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interviewer-dawkins-name-a-process-which-increases-the-genomes-information-content/405722/9 "2007-05-27T20:20:09Z")
Just when you though creationists had finally given up, you get stuff like this bubbling back up to the surface and treated seriously. Almost makes you want to cry. Like this: look at first prize. [http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=18345643&BRD=2081&PAG=461&dept\_id=385210&rfi=6](http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=18345643&BRD=2081&PAG=461&dept_id=385210&rfi=6) It’s wrong and ridiculous in a “million” different ways, and yet they not only never told the kid, taught him to do better science, but they gave him first prize, thus setting him up to be either a laughingstock or deluded for life. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2007, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interviewer-dawkins-name-a-process-which-increases-the-genomes-information-content/405722/10 "2007-05-27T20:40:55Z")
…and a complete lack of understanding ofwhat science is and how it works. If anyone actually “disproved evolution”, that person would be given a Nobel Prize. I’m sure creationists think that person would be “excommunicated from science”, or something. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2007, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interviewer-dawkins-name-a-process-which-increases-the-genomes-information-content/405722/11 "2007-05-27T20:54:58Z")
That’s an attitude I see a lot from the devoutly religious that don’t have much experience with scientific thinking, though. It’s the only frame of reference they have, so they apply it to evolution, or with more frequency lately, global warming debates. They see scientists and see priests, or preachers, not understanding that the fact of the matter doesn’t weigh on any one individual. It’s a fundamental (ha!) misunderstanding of the scientific method, as you say, but it certainly sheds some light to me on how they’re approaching the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2007, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interviewer-dawkins-name-a-process-which-increases-the-genomes-information-content/405722/12 "2007-05-27T20:59:31Z")
Sorry, first Prize in the Life Sciences category… which makes it even more bizarre. ---
**Author:** ![chrisk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2007, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interviewer-dawkins-name-a-process-which-increases-the-genomes-information-content/405722/13 "2007-05-27T21:09:53Z")
> [@Apos' link](#): > > Brian Benson, an eighth-grade student who won first place in the Life Science/Biology category for his project “Creation Wins!!!,” says he disproved part of the theory of evolution. Using a rolled-up paper towel suspended between two glasses of water with Epsom Salts, the paper towel formed stalactites. He states that the theory that they take millions of years to develop is incorrect. > > “Scientists say it takes millions of years to form stalactites,” Benson said. “However, in only a couple of hours, I have formed stalactites just by using paper towel and Epsom Salts.” First - I didn’t think that any evolutionary scientists have ever had any reason to look at stalactites, no. Geologists would, who young-earth-creationists have also butted heads with, and paleontologists, who kind of straddle the ground between geology and biology in some ways IIRC. Also - if there was a theory that said it took millions of years to form stalactites, they probably mentioned in the small print that their results were presuming the ABSENCE of paper towels at the start of the process. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Tangent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tangent/32/3098_2.png) [@Tangent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tangent)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2007, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interviewer-dawkins-name-a-process-which-increases-the-genomes-information-content/405722/14 "2007-05-27T21:13:29Z")
[QUOTE=Apos] Sorry, first Prize in the Life Sciences category… which makes it even more bizarre. [/QUOTE] But he grew some salt crystals in just a few hours, thereby proving the Young Earth theory and disproving evolution! ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2007, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interviewer-dawkins-name-a-process-which-increases-the-genomes-information-content/405722/15 "2007-05-27T21:27:30Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] And you will never see any negative responses because JJjayco is censoring all negative(and all questioning) posts [/QUOTE] So, what’s the best way to counter this kind of misinformation? Can you create a website that would be high on the list of creationists, which when they link to, they can read both sides of the issue? What do you do? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2007, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interviewer-dawkins-name-a-process-which-increases-the-genomes-information-content/405722/16 "2007-05-27T21:49:23Z")
If you look to the right of the feature video, you’ll see other videos on the same subject, not necessarily by the same person. This is where I found Dawkin’s response. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2007, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interviewer-dawkins-name-a-process-which-increases-the-genomes-information-content/405722/17 "2007-05-27T22:16:18Z")
The amazing thing is how many Catholics and and mainstream Protestants (about 30% of both) are creationists. If priests would just give one sermon a year on how Genesis is not meant to be interpreted literally, that would go a long way. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2007, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interviewer-dawkins-name-a-process-which-increases-the-genomes-information-content/405722/18 "2007-05-28T00:51:51Z")
[QUOTE=samclem] So, what’s the best way to counter this kind of misinformation? [/QUOTE] Try to outlive the proponents. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2007, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interviewer-dawkins-name-a-process-which-increases-the-genomes-information-content/405722/19 "2007-05-28T01:34:30Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Try to outlive the proponents. [/QUOTE] But I’m afraid they’re out **breeding** us, and that’s more significant. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2007, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interviewer-dawkins-name-a-process-which-increases-the-genomes-information-content/405722/20 "2007-05-28T02:34:05Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] But I’m afraid they’re out **breeding** us, and that’s more significant. 🙂 [/QUOTE] Then the answer is somewhat obvious, isn’t it? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interviewer-dawkins-name-a-process-which-increases-the-genomes-information-content/405722.md?page=2)