# Intifada in France **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 5, 2005, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654 "2005-11-05T15:08:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2005, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654/41 "2005-11-06T19:19:06Z")
In some societies a visible religious group membership and a national group membership can coexist. In France one precludes the other. These youths had no particular strong ties to their religious membership. Their glomming onto a form of militant Islam is the result of the human need to belong to a group that accepts you. The same factors that drive gang membership in the States. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2005, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654/42 "2005-11-06T20:28:14Z")
According to [this article](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9891709/), police have discovered a ‘bomb-making factory’, for making molotov cocktails. > [@](#): > > Police also found a gasoline bomb-making factory in a derelict building in Evry south of Paris, with more than 100 bottles ready to turned into bombs, another 50 already prepared, as well as fuel stocks and hoods for hiding rioters’ faces, senior Justice Ministry official Jean-Marie Huet told The Associated Press. Police arrested six people, all under 18. > > The discovery Saturday night, he said, shows that gasoline bombs “are not being improvised by kids in their bathrooms.” So it looks like some of this is organized, and the intent is to keep this up for a while. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2005, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654/43 "2005-11-06T22:17:23Z")
“Organized” may be a bit of an overstatement. Some gangs of young male thugs who are feeling that they having nothing to lose anyway are thrilled with the prospect of playing real life video games and are trying to produce Molotov cocktails by the dozens to keep the game going. They want this anarchy to continue for as long as possible. While it continues they experience a sense of power. Like preschoolers who misbehave knowing that they will be yelled at, but the power trip of forcing the reaction is still preferrable to being ignored. They are in control. Like a videogame it is a fantasy and when they get the “game-over” they go back to powerlessness and hoplessness. Even they know that. But for now its a trip. Don’t get me wrong, nothing excuses these actions. Rioting accomplishes the exact opposite of what is in the best interest of their demographic. And there is no simple fix to France’s societal problems. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2005, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654/44 "2005-11-06T22:23:25Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > “Organized” may be a bit of an overstatement. Some gangs of young male thugs who are feeling that they having nothing to lose anyway are thrilled with the prospect of playing real life video games and are trying to produce Molotov cocktails by the dozens to keep the game going. They want this anarchy to continue for as long as possible. While it continues they experience a sense of power. Like preschoolers who misbehave knowing that they will be yelled at, but the power trip of forcing the reaction is still preferrable to being ignored. They are in control. Like a videogame it is a fantasy and when they get the “game-over” they go back to powerlessness and hoplessness. Even they know that. But for now its a trip. > > Don’t get me wrong, nothing excuses these actions. Rioting accomplishes the exact opposite of what is in the best interest of their demographic. And there is no simple fix to France’s societal problems. I didn’t say what kind of organization it was, but clearly there is some organization (as opposed to just spontaneous outbursts of violence as in the LA riots). Someone’s thinking ahead and calmly trying to build bombs and stockpile them. But I’m curious - you seem to be very sure that this is nothing more than a ‘game’, and that it’s just gangs of young thugs. This may be true, but do you have evidence to offer that this is the case? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2005, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654/45 "2005-11-06T22:38:45Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Someone’s thinking ahead and calmly trying to build bombs and stockpile them …because making a petrol bomb is so complicated and time-consuming :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2005, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654/46 "2005-11-06T23:25:12Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Rioting accomplishes the exact opposite of what is in the best interest of their demographic. What is “the best interest of their demographic”? How can a demographic have a best interest? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2005, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654/47 "2005-11-06T23:40:54Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > …because making a petrol bomb is so complicated and time-consuming :rolleyes: Oh, thanks for rolleyes. Making a petrol bomb may not be complicated and time consuming, but finding an abandoned building, collecting hundreds of bottles, containers of gas, and stockpiling balaclavas is not something you do on a whim in the middle of a riot. It suggests that someone is making an organized attempt to keep this going for a reason. Maybe it’s just a youth gang attempting make a big splash, or maybe it’s a political group seeing an opportunity in the riots to make a larger point, or perhaps it’s a terror group trying to leverage the riots into a bigger conflagration. Who knows? I merely pointed out that there is some organization going on here. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2005, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654/48 "2005-11-06T23:46:37Z")
Cr@p! It’s _spreading!_ [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4412316.stm#map](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4412316.stm#map) ---
**Author:** ![MelCthefirst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eada6e/32.png) [@MelCthefirst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MelCthefirst)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2005, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654/49 "2005-11-06T23:51:35Z")
From what I have studied on rioting, there is ofcourse an element of chance and being the right place (or wrong!) but there is also a strong element of organisation - such as calling each other up and meeting in a prearranged area, getting rioting equiptment together, finding transport etc. Soccer hooliganism is highly organised in such a manner, even though it appears to most of us to be more spontaneous. People (mostly male) seem to get quite addicted to this kind of adrenaline rush. ---
**Author:** ![gitfiddle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/898d66/32.png) [@gitfiddle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gitfiddle)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654/50 "2005-11-07T00:12:41Z")
> [@AFAIKnow](#): > > [Paris Rioters Set Woman Afire as Violence Spreads](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,174533,00.html) > > Me thinks it’s only a matter of time before people start dying, unless the authorities crack down. I don’t know if someone has addressed this since, because I haven’t finished reading the thread (it’s late I’m tired), but I’m living in Paris, and I’ve been keeping up with the news. Yes, the woman was burnt, and I was disgusted, but that’s THE most violent story I’ve seen thus far. There was another man last night who was knocked to the ground, and I just saw on the midnight news that some officers were hurt tonight. Yet, this is nothing like what the violence would be if a group of youths were trying to burn Billy Bob’s Z-747 or Susie Blue’s Expedition. The media IS blowing this out of proportion. It is bad, but people are going on with their every day lives. I was at l’Elysees today, and no one seemed to scared. If I didn’t watch the news, I wouldn’t even know there were riots. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654/51 "2005-11-07T00:25:40Z")
Any leftist joining the fun? Anti-globalisation movements, anti-capitalist, ATTACK, etc. that sort (the “anarchists’ traveling circus”) Which protested in Seattle, Gothenburg etc. The way the media seems to prefer to spin the French riots, and most on this board, as some kind of social upheaval by an estranged and oppressed minority. That seems to be just their kind of struggle. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654/52 "2005-11-07T00:36:15Z")
> [@gitfiddle](#): > > If I didn’t watch the news, I wouldn’t even know there were riots. Also, I’ve heard the passangers on the Titanic didn’t feel the collision with the iceberg as but a little stirring of their tea. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654/53 "2005-11-07T01:00:00Z")
Hadn’t seem this thread…its similar to another one in GD (though it doesn’t seem to be getting any more responses). In any case I’ll post [this](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051106/ap_on_re_eu/france_rioting) that I posted in the other thead. Seems things are getting worse in France, not better. I don’t see a lot of criticism for Chirac’s government on the board…any consensus by our Euro bretheren as to how the French are handling this spot of trouble? > [@](#): > > PARIS - French President Jacques Chirac on Sunday promised arrests, trials and punishment for those sowing “violence or fear” across France — as the urban unrest that has triggered attacks on vehicles, nursery schools and other targets reached central Paris. > > Youths set ablaze nearly 1,300 vehicles and torched businesses, schools and symbols of French authority, including post offices and provincial police stations, late Saturday and early Sunday. > > Police clashed with rioters south of the capital Sunday night, the 11th consecutive night of unrest. About 10 police were injured, two seriously, in Grigny in the Essonne region, the Interior Ministry said. LCI television reported that shots from a pellet gun were fired. > > The violence took another alarming turn Saturday night with attacks in the well-guarded French capital. Police said 35 cars were torched, most on the city’s northern and southern edges. > > In central Paris, gasoline bombs damaged three cars near Place de la Republique. Residents reported a loud explosion and flames. > > “We were very afraid,” said Annie Partouche, 55, who watched the cars burning from her apartment window. “We were afraid to leave the building.” > > Chirac spoke after a security meeting of his top ministers. > > “The law must have the last word,” Chirac said in his first public address on the violence. Those sowing “violence or fear” will be “arrested, judged and punished.” > > Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin promised speedy trials for rioters and extra security where it was needed. > > Chirac said France was determined to promote “respect for all, justice and equal opportunities.” Violence has been concentrated in poor suburbs with large immigrant populations. > > “But there is a precondition, a priority, I repeat,” he said. “That is the restoring of security and public order.” > > The French president had faced criticism from opposition politicians for not publicly speaking about France’s worst civil unrest in more than a decade. His only previous comments came through a spokesman. > > From an outburst of anger in suburban Paris housing projects, the violence has fanned out into a nationwide show of disdain for French authority from youths and minorities, most French-born children of Arab and black Africans angered by years of unequal opportunities. > > Arsonists burned 1,295 vehicles nationwide overnight Saturday-Sunday — sharply up from 897 the night before, national police spokesman Patrick Hamon said, adding that police made 349 arrests nationwide. 1,200 vehicles nation wide between saturday and sunday? Gas bombs? Torching symbols of French authority? Gods…it almost sounds like a popular uprising. This seems to me (ignorant American that I am) to be much more serious than the news reports are generally making it out to be. Again, what do our Euro bretheren (and specifically our French posters) think of all this? -XT ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654/54 "2005-11-07T01:02:08Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Also, I’ve heard the passangers on the Titanic didn’t feel the collision with the iceberg as but a little stirring of their tea. I was in the SF Bay area when the big earthquake happened, sections of the marina district, part of the bridge and a double deck freeway collapsed, dozens dead… but everything else was OK. But if one only watched the news it was clear: San Francisco was destroyed! Thank heaven the World series was there at that time, when the series resumed I was very glad to see the media talking heads seeing the intact San Francisco skyline and saying in an almost whiny voice that “yes, it is still there!” ---
**Author:** ![AFAIKnow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a6a055/32.png) [@AFAIKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AFAIKnow)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654/55 "2005-11-07T04:25:47Z")
> [@gitfiddle](#): > > The media IS blowing this out of proportion. It is bad, but people are going on with their every day lives. I was at l’Elysees today, and no one seemed to scared. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4412316.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4412316.stm) > [@](#): > > In Grigny, south of Paris, rioters fired shots at police, injuring 10 police officers, two of them seriously. At least them yutes can’t get guns. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654/56 "2005-11-07T04:47:07Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Any leftist joining the fun? No. > [@](#): > > Anti-globalisation movements, anti-capitalist, ATTACK, etc. that sort (the “anarchists’ traveling circus”) Which protested in Seattle, Gothenburg etc. The way the media seems to prefer to spin the French riots, and most on this board, as some kind of social upheaval by an estranged and oppressed minority. That seems to be just their kind of struggle. Yes. These groups fully support car and school burning. I think it’s the point 17 of their official common platform. Didn’t you read it? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654/57 "2005-11-07T04:58:58Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > 1,200 vehicles nation wide between saturday and sunday? Gas bombs? Torching symbols of French authority? Gods…it almost sounds like a popular uprising. This seems to me (ignorant American that I am) to be much more serious than the news reports are generally making it out to be. Again, what do our Euro bretheren (and specifically our French posters) think of all this? > > -XT That it’s exactly the same thing that what happened a number of times during the recent years in the same areas, except on a larger scale (everywhere at the same time) and for a longer time (more than a week instead of a couple days). But it’s still the same small subset of the population in the same places, so it’s nothing like a popular uprising. It underlines the seriousness of the problems in these areas, though. Maybe they’re actually going to do something about it when it will calm down (though thinking twice, probably not) instead of relying on the agressive “law and order” rethoric our dear interior minister Sarkozy has been using for long time in his populist bid for presidency. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654/58 "2005-11-07T05:28:13Z")
**Sam** , I only know what I read and know enough to be skeptical of that. But what I’ve read is no wide scale organization. No, getting together a few hundred bottles and cans of gas and tearing up some clothes for masks in one of many abandoned buildings does not scream out organized significantly effort. That’s like “Hey kids! let’s put on a show!” level of organization. But no, I wouldn’t say it is a game. Nevertheless the illusion of power it gives the participants is the same as in a game, and just as much of a fantasy. When it settles back down their power is gone again, and these thugs know it. Nothing motivates a bully more than the realization of their impotance. **Rune** , the demographic’s best interests would be served by having the respect and acceptance of the rest of the French populus. This activity will only exacerbate the negative image of the group as a whole. **Clair** , Law and order _is_ important and all well and good. It just works better the more the people feel they have something to lose. While this increasingly entrenched underclass feels they have no stake in future opportunities, it will be difficult to impose law and order upon them. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654/59 "2005-11-07T05:55:51Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > [ > **Clair** , Law and order _is_ important and all well and good. Sure it it. But in Sarkozy’s case, it’s just a political show off. I’m sure he’s gleefully happy counting all the votes he’s gaining with each Molotov cocktail thrown. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654/60 "2005-11-07T07:01:07Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Oh, thanks for rolleyes. Making a petrol bomb may not be complicated and time consuming, but finding an abandoned building, collecting hundreds of bottles, containers of gas, and stockpiling balaclavas is not something you do on a whim in the middle of a riot. Find an abandoned building in a slum? One minute. Find bottles? Five minutes - the nearest recycling bank will suffice Petrol? Another five minutes. Balaclavas? Even if these take 45 minutes to track down, this massive organised operation has taken under an hour. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654.md?page=4)