# Intifada in France **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 5, 2005, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654 "2005-11-05T15:08:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654/61 "2005-11-07T09:59:03Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Find an abandoned building in a slum? One minute. > Find bottles? Five minutes - the nearest recycling bank will suffice > Petrol? Another five minutes. > Balaclavas? Even if these take 45 minutes to track down, this massive organised operation has taken under an hour. Five minutes more for dousing a woman on crutches with petroleum and setting her on fire… Maybe 2 minutes for shooting two policemen? Voilà. Not hard work at all. And perfectly acceptable to do if you live in a not so rich environment. My granddad did it all the time when he was unemployed and living in a banlieu. :rolleyes: Originally posted by **chappachula** QUOTE]\* Or maybe the other way round: Muslims aren’t seen as really French because they dont want to see themselves as French–they want to be Muslims \* [/QUOTE] You got it in one. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654/62 "2005-11-07T11:38:05Z")
And it has spread to [Belgium](http://www.standaard.be/Kanaal/Index.aspx?artikelId=DMF07112005_011&kanaalid=62) & [Germany](http://www.faz.net/s/Rub594835B672714A1DB1A121534F010EE1/Doc~E0266DD44E2A244AEA938A2FB7E71E997~ATpl~Ecommon~Scontent.html) Tsk, tsk. All those poor muslims. All in the same position everywhere, huh. Not a chance in hell that a non-muslim might live in the exact same conditions and don’t set cars and PEOPLE on fire, huh. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654/63 "2005-11-07T12:14:07Z")
> [@gum](#): > > And it has spread to > > [Belgium](http://www.standaard.be/Kanaal/Index.aspx?artikelId=DMF07112005_011&kanaalid=62) > > & > > [Germany](http://www.faz.net/s/Rub594835B672714A1DB1A121534F010EE1/Doc~E0266DD44E2A244AEA938A2FB7E71E997~ATpl~Ecommon~Scontent.html) > Tsk, tsk. > All those poor muslims. All in the same position everywhere, huh. > Not a chance in hell that a non-muslim might live in the exact same conditions and don’t set cars and PEOPLE on fire, huh. Germany and Italy: > [@](#): > > Neighboring Germany, too, has a large immigrant population, including over 3 million Muslims – most of Turkish origin. > Wolfgang Bosbach, deputy leader of the conservative Christian Democrats in parliament, told a Sunday newspaper: > “There are differences between the situation in France and here, but we should not be under the illusion that similar events could not happen in Germany.” > In Italy, opposition leader Romano Prodi called on the government to take urgent action, telling reporters: > “We have the worst suburbs in Europe. I don’t think things are so different from Paris. It’s only a question of time.” [Breaking International News & Views | Reuters](http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=uri:2005-11-06T171643Z_01_MAR227625_RTRUKOC_0_US-FRANCE-RIOTS.xml&pageNumber=1&summit=) And Denmark: [http://www.dr.dk/Nyheder/Andre+sprog/English/2005/11/02/111703.htm](http://www.dr.dk/Nyheder/Andre+sprog/English/2005/11/02/111703.htm) Riots. Coming soon to a community near you ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654/64 "2005-11-07T12:33:11Z")
Aaaand…they’ve taken to burning Christian Churches. Well. So much for the argument that this is not a primarily religious action. Anybody wanna consider Al Qida involvement _now_? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654/65 "2005-11-07T12:58:15Z")
And they pelted an ambulance! So much for the argument that this is not primarlly a health care access riot. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654/66 "2005-11-07T13:34:02Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > And they pelted an ambulance! So much for the argument that this is not primarlly a health care access riot. Of course it’s not evidence of anything. But perhaps, in light of one of the incidents which started the whole she-bang – the alleged firing of a gas-canister into a Mosque, perhaps it is yet another indication of a certain kind of chasm-wide double standard one has come to expect of the so-called Arab- or Muslim –street. Desecrating the Koran is sacrilege or the highest order - using the bible for toilet paper and burning the Torah is ok. Muslim buildings must be respected and reverend by everyone - running riot through ancient Christian churches, blowing up thousand of year’s old Buddhist statues and tearing down Jewish religious houses is ok. And now, accidentally firing a gas-canister into a Mosque is worth rioting for - and apparently burning down churches for. Hypocrites. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654/67 "2005-11-07T14:31:17Z")
[Fatwa issued as Paris rioters fire at police](http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200511/s1499105.htm) > [@](#): > > The Union of French Islamic Organisations (UOIF) quotes the Koran and the Prophet Mohammad to back up the religious edict condemning the disorder and destruction the unrest caused. > > “It is formally forbidden to any Muslim seeking divine grace and satisfaction to participate in any action that blindly hits private or public property or could constitute an attack on someone’s life,” the fatwa said. > > “Contributing to such exactions is an illicit act.” > > But Muslim residents in the rundown suburbs say rioters’ anger is more about unemployment and discrimination than religion. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654/68 "2005-11-07T14:52:23Z")
Worsening French riots claim first victim > [@](#): > > A 61-year-old man beaten into a coma by a hooded youth in the northern suburb of Stains died in hospital > **[Sify.com | Live Cricket Scores | T20 World Cup | Gold Rate | Movie Reviews |...](https://www.sify.com)** > > Sify.com, India cricket live scores, GST, Gold rates, Narendra Modi, India news, t20 world cup, IPL 2021, Tokyo Olympics, India fights Coronavirus, Union Budget 2018-19, Live Union Budget 2018-19 coverage, sports, cricket, movies, movie reviews,... Beating a 61 year-old man into a coma?! Bring in the national guard and shoot to kill. Rioting scum don’t deserve any better. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654/69 "2005-11-07T17:50:02Z")
I seem to recall that a similar Fatwa was issued against muslims participating in the Iraq insurgency at one time or another (also, similar ones aimed at anti-terrorist after 9/11) tomndebb…they seem to have little effect. I’m not sure that you can necessarily draw the conclusion that the riots are solely about unemployment and discrimination, though I agree that it seems this is of greater factor than purely religious motivations. From what I’m reading it seems to still be getting worse…I read that article Rune quoted and another one on CNN and it seems that its possible this may spread beyond France (there was mention of Germany and Belgium I believe). How far COULD this spread throughout Europe? Is the perception of discrimination strong in other countries besides France for foreign born immigrants? Is the unemployment for those same folks equally high and equally frustrating? -XT ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654/70 "2005-11-07T18:03:57Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Hypocrites. Nonsense. Their religion is the Right One, and they’re just attacking false religions, no hypocrisy in that. That’s how the religious stuff works. ---
**Author:** ![gitfiddle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/898d66/32.png) [@gitfiddle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gitfiddle)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654/71 "2005-11-07T19:27:16Z")
> [@gum](#): > > Tsk, tsk. > All those poor muslims. All in the same position everywhere, huh. > Not a chance in hell that a non-muslim might live in the exact same conditions and don’t set cars and PEOPLE on fire, huh. First of all, I just want to say that I’m not trying to validate anything that these thugs are doing, but, at the same time, I’m not going to listen to people who are so ready to claim that it’s Islam that’s at the root of this problem. I think that _ONE_ of the causes for the problem is that everyone is that everyone is so ready to blame Muslims. If the driving factor for the riots was the religion of Islam, why aren’t Muslims of all ages participating? Why is it so focused on the youth? I’m not French, but being from the South in the states, I know how people use culture against one another. I hesitate as much as possible with any indictment like that. To attribute the actions of a part of a group to the entire group is to open the rift even further. I honestly think it’s racist to class this as uniquelly a muslim problem. As far as the people who are pointing out that the uprisings are happening in other countries now, is that really a surprise? I ask that honestly, because I’ve always here (FROM Europeans) that the Muslim/Europe problem has been more or less the same in most European countries…not including Sweden…they’re always perfect…I’m just kidding…half-kidding. ---
**Author:** ![gitfiddle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/898d66/32.png) [@gitfiddle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gitfiddle)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654/72 "2005-11-07T19:34:27Z")
I forgot to add that as regards those who are perpetuating the violence for religious reasons, designating them as true representatives of Islam is like calling Pat Robertson and Timothy McVeigh model Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654/73 "2005-11-07T21:08:05Z")
Personally, I would ask people to look at the “moral” lessons taught by the holy book of their religion, the culture of their parents, etc., in addition to the economic factors and dissatisfaction, but that’s just me. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654/74 "2005-11-07T21:40:37Z")
Originally posted by **gitfiddle** > [@](#): > > \*I honestly think it’s racist to class this as uniquelly a muslim problem. > \* I honestly think posts like these are a bit ignorant. Muslims aren’t a _race_. We have white, red, black, brown, yellow and - if from outer space - green muslims. Nor are muslims from a specific country. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654/75 "2005-11-07T22:22:48Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > Aaaand…they’ve taken to burning Christian Churches. > > Well. > > So much for the argument that this is not a primarily religious action. > > Anybody wanna consider Al Qida involvement _now_? :dubious: Not me at least. Both the journalist reports and the first trials point at no organization above the level of the local gang/group of 12-25 yo buddies. And yes, they burned a church, and a number of schools, of supermarkets, of gymnasiums, of social services, etc… still doesn’t see this as a religious action. ---
**Author:** ![gitfiddle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/898d66/32.png) [@gitfiddle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gitfiddle)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654/76 "2005-11-07T22:49:49Z")
> [@gum](#): > > I honestly think posts like these are a bit ignorant. > > Muslims aren’t a _race_. We have white, red, black, brown, yellow and - if from outer space - green muslims. > Nor are muslims from a specific country. Thanks gum! 😃 Guess that discredits everything I said… 😉 I’m fully aware that they’re not a race. I apologize for the mistake, I had just mentioned the South, so I was in that frame of mind. That said, I am ignorant, that’s why I’m here. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654/77 "2005-11-07T22:55:50Z")
You’re welcome. 😃 And so am I. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654/78 "2005-11-07T23:00:12Z")
p/s They aim at baby’s and baby centres now. “In Colombes, suburban Paris, youths pelted rocks at a bus, sending a 13-month-old child to hospital with a head injury. A day-care centre was burned in Saint-Maurice, another Paris suburb”. [http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=bd26e1eb-dfbe-4296-8367-0de61729a098](http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=bd26e1eb-dfbe-4296-8367-0de61729a098) ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654/79 "2005-11-07T23:44:05Z")
“Turkish Premier Recep Tayyip Erdogan said France had ignored his calls for more tolerance, arguing that France’s ban on head scarves in public schools triggered the riots”. So good to know Islam had nothing to do with it, huh. ---
**Author:** ![gitfiddle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/898d66/32.png) [@gitfiddle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gitfiddle)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654/80 "2005-11-07T23:49:42Z")
The news every morning shows elementary schools, nurseries, and libraries that are being burnt. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intifada-in-france/329654.md?page=5)