# Into the fire: Why was/is Jesuitism so hated? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 1, 2011, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/into-the-fire-why-was-is-jesuitism-so-hated/601491 "2011-11-01T14:39:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/into-the-fire-why-was-is-jesuitism-so-hated/601491/21 "2011-11-01T23:26:08Z")
In addition to the shock troops aspect: Since they emphasize both teaching and missionary work, they do a lot of arguing and have a reputation for using casuistry and lies of omission in their arguments. > **[Mental reservation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctrine_of_mental_reservation)** > > Mental reservation (or mental equivocation) is an ethical theory and a doctrine in moral theology that recognizes the "lie of necessity", and holds that when there is a conflict between justice and veracity, it is justice that should prevail. The doctrine is a special branch of casuistry (case-based reasoning) developed in the late Middle Ages and the Renaissance. While associated with the Jesuits, it did not originate with them. It is a theory debated by moral theologians, but not part of Canon ... A joke I heard: A Jesuit is a man who, upon being accused of murdering his neighbor and killing a lamb, would promptly and proudly produce the lamb. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/into-the-fire-why-was-is-jesuitism-so-hated/601491/22 "2011-11-01T23:34:04Z")
From Voltaire’s [_Candide_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candide) (1759): > [@](#): > > “By St. James of Compostella,” said Cacambo, “you were going to fight against the Jesuits; let us go to fight for them; I know the road well, I’ll conduct you to their kingdom, where they will be charmed to have a captain that understands the Bulgarian exercise. You’ll make a prodigious fortune; if we cannot find our account in one world we shall in another. It is a great pleasure to see and do new things.” > > “You have before been in Paraguay, then?” said Candide. > > “Ay, sure,” answered Cacambo, “I was servant in the College of the Assumption, and am acquainted with the government of the good Fathers as well as I am with the streets of Cadiz. It is an admirable government. The kingdom is upwards of three hundred leagues in diameter, and divided into thirty provinces; there the Fathers possess all, and the people nothing; it is a masterpiece of reason and justice. For my part I see nothing so divine as the Fathers who here make war upon the kings of Spain and Portugal, and in Europe confess those kings; who here kill Spaniards, and in Madrid send them to heaven; this delights me, let us push forward. You are going to be the happiest of mortals. What pleasure will it be to those[Pg 60] Fathers to hear that a captain who knows the Bulgarian exercise has come to them!” > > \ > > "I shall have ever present to my memory the dreadful day, on which I saw my father and mother killed, and my sister ravished. When the Bulgarians retired, my dear sister could not be found; but my mother, my father, and myself, with two maid-servants and three little boys all of whom had been slain, were put in a hearse, to be conveyed for interment to a chapel belonging to the Jesuits, within two leagues of our family seat. A Jesuit sprinkled us with some holy water; it was horribly salt; a few drops of it fell into my eyes; the father perceived that my eyelids stirred a little; he put his hand upon my heart and felt it beat. I received assistance, and at the end of three weeks I recovered. You know, my dear Candide, I was very pretty; but I grew much prettier, and the reverend Father Didrie,[16] Superior of that House, conceived the tenderest friendship for me; he gave me the habit of the order, some years after I was sent to Rome. The Father-General[Pg 65] needed new levies of young German-Jesuits. The sovereigns of Paraguay admit as few Spanish Jesuits as possible; they prefer those of other nations as being more subordinate to their commands. I was judged fit by the reverend Father-General to go and work in this vineyard. We set out—a Pole, a Tyrolese, and myself. Upon my arrival I was honoured with a sub-deaconship and a lieutenancy. I am to-day colonel and priest. We shall give a warm reception to the King of Spain’s troops; I will answer for it that they shall be excommunicated and well beaten. . . . Not ten years after _Candide_ was published, [the Jesuits were booted out of LA.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppression_of_the_Society_of_Jesus) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/into-the-fire-why-was-is-jesuitism-so-hated/601491/23 "2011-11-06T15:37:33Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > They were special, all right, they were the militant order formed for the specific purpose of spearheading the Counter Reformation and fighting back the Protestant tide. **(Now** they’re mostly just academics – most intellectual Catholic order ever, the Jesuits. I went to Georgetown U. myself.) That’s it! Everybody hates the Jesuits because **HOYAS KICK ASS!!** 😃 ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/into-the-fire-why-was-is-jesuitism-so-hated/601491/24 "2011-11-06T16:40:22Z")
The Jesuits were also extremely influential in the East Indies, making them obvious targets for the English, Dutch, and other Protestant traders and merchants who wanted access to Eastern markets but were kept out by the Jesuits. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/into-the-fire-why-was-is-jesuitism-so-hated/601491/25 "2011-11-06T16:52:33Z")
> [@appleciders](#): > > The Jesuits were also extremely influential in the East Indies, making them obvious targets for the English, Dutch, and other Protestant traders and merchants who wanted access to Eastern markets but were kept out by the Jesuits. Much of the plot of James Clavell’s _Shogun_ is about that. Also there’s a lot of intra-Catholic rivalry, sometimes bitter, between Spanish Dominicans and Portuguese Jesuits in the East Indies and Japan – is that historically correct? ---
**Author:** ![SeldomSeen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ba0ec/32.png) [@SeldomSeen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeldomSeen)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/into-the-fire-why-was-is-jesuitism-so-hated/601491/26 "2011-11-06T17:21:55Z")
Not really an answer to the OP, but an intriguing anecdote indicates that stereotypes about Jesuits and Catholic sensitivity to the subject remain alive and well; James Michener, writing about his experiences as a textbook editor at the large Macmillan publishing company had this to say: > [@](#): > > One of our college texts had used the unfortunate phrase **“typical jesuitical cunning”** and the full force of the Catholic educational apparatus in New York and other states fell upon us with the stated - not implied - threat that if we did not remove that phrase from the specific book in hand and, as company policy, ban the pejorative use of the word “jesuitical,” the Catholic institutions would have to boycott not only all our textbooks, but also our other books. There was much discussion about this word in the corridors at Macmillan, and about freedom of speech, but in the end the phrase was dropped and I became so indoctrinated that I find it difficult to use it even today. I notice, however, that the new _Random House Dictionary_ contains as definition (2) _using oversubtle reasoning; crafty; sly; intriguing._ Well, maybe Random can get away with it. Macmillan couldn’t. Not only Catholics…the writer also told of a threatened boycott and lawsuit by the Mormon church against his company for the unforgivable sin of including an account of the Mountain Meadows Massacre in their American History Text. It seems that when organized religion collides with freedom of speech, its reactions can be almost…_jesuitical._ SS ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/into-the-fire-why-was-is-jesuitism-so-hated/601491/27 "2011-11-06T17:55:22Z")
I’m not sure i’d consider that first example of yours to be Catholic sensitivity. “Typical jesuitical cunning” seems pretty unpleasant wording to me as a non-Catholic, and I don’t believe i’d personally be pretty happy to boycott a company which decided using “jesuitical” as a pejorative was acceptable. Would “typical jewish meanness with money” or somesuch other pandering to stereotype be acceptable phrasing? Free speech doesn’t mean you get away with no consequences for the content of your speech. Censorship would be one thing; simply electing not to purchase the products of speech you find unpleasant doesn’t abridge that right. The lawsuit in the second case would be a different matter, of course. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/into-the-fire-why-was-is-jesuitism-so-hated/601491/28 "2011-11-06T18:24:51Z")
And, of course, everything Jack Chick has ever written about the Jesuits is literally true. Gotta be. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/into-the-fire-why-was-is-jesuitism-so-hated/601491/29 "2011-11-06T18:30:26Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Much of the plot of James Clavell’s _Shogun_ is about that. Also there’s a lot of intra-Catholic rivalry, sometimes bitter, between Spanish Dominicans and Portuguese Jesuits in the East Indies and Japan – is that historically correct? The rivalry in Shogun is between Jesuits and Franciscans, but there is a famous Dominican-Jesuit rivalry. that started with a debate over free will and grace that lasted for about 25 years, which led the pope at the time to call a conference between the Jesuits and Dominicans to settle it. The conference lasted 9 years and didn’t come to any conclusions, so the Pope just gave up, told them to try to be tolerant of each other or at least stop insulting each other, so they went home and still disagree. Jesuits and Franciscans also have issues with each other. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/into-the-fire-why-was-is-jesuitism-so-hated/601491/30 "2011-11-06T18:33:40Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I’m not sure i’d consider that first example of yours to be Catholic sensitivity. “Typical jesuitical cunning” seems pretty unpleasant wording to me as a non-Catholic, and I don’t believe i’d personally be pretty happy to boycott a company which decided using “jesuitical” as a pejorative was acceptable. Would “typical jewish meanness with money” or somesuch other pandering to stereotype be acceptable phrasing? There’s a false equivalency here. Any Jesuit would spot it right away. And not mention it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/into-the-fire-why-was-is-jesuitism-so-hated/601491/31 "2011-11-06T18:39:09Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > The rivalry in Shogun is between Jesuits and Franciscans, but there is a famous Dominican-Jesuit rivalry. that started with a debate over free will and grace that lasted for about 25 years, which led the pope at the time to call a conference between the Jesuits and Dominicans to settle it. The conference lasted 9 years and didn’t come to any conclusions, so the Pope just gave up, told them to try to be tolerant of each other or at least stop insulting each other, so they went home and still disagree. > > Jesuits and Franciscans also have issues with each other. You’re right, Franciscans. When Blackthorne meets a Spanish Franciscan priest in jail, the first thing the old priest wants him to swear is that he did not come to Japan on a **Portuguese** ship! (The possibility Blackthorne is from a Protestant country never occurs to him, he chalks up the blond hair to “Spanish Flanders” and Blackthorne is careful not to correct him; if he did not come on a Portuguese ship it must have been Spanish – again, it never occurs to the priest another European nation might be sailing these waters for the first time.) It all seems to be a complicated nationalistic rivalry (the King of Spain is also King of Portugal at the moment, but it’s only a personal union and the Portuguese are still touchy about it, etc.), combined with a conflict in the two orders’ priorities (the Franciscans want to convert the masses, the Jesuits want to cozy up to the princes and rajahs and mandarins and daimyo). Non-converted Japanese prefer the Jesuits at least for appearance and smell; they call the Franciscans the “Barefoot Hairies.” Again, not sure how historical any of that is, though I know Blackthorne at least was based on a real person, [William Adams.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Adams_(sailor)) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/into-the-fire-why-was-is-jesuitism-so-hated/601491/32 "2011-11-06T19:04:02Z")
That’s all basically true. The Jesuits, sponsored by the Portuguese, had the sole right to evangelize in Japan, and focused mainly on the samurai, but Franciscans, usually Spanish, would come in and preach in secret to the peasants, which would usually end with them getting martyred. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/into-the-fire-why-was-is-jesuitism-so-hated/601491/33 "2011-11-06T19:07:47Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Much of the plot of James Clavell’s _Shogun_ is about that. Also there’s a lot of intra-Catholic rivalry, sometimes bitter, between Spanish Dominicans and Portuguese Jesuits in the East Indies and Japan – is that historically correct? > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > You’re right, Franciscans. When Blackthorne meets a Spanish Franciscan priest in jail, the first thing the old priest wants him to swear is that he did not come to Japan on a **Portuguese** ship! (The possibility Blackthorne is from a Protestant country never occurs to him, he chalks up the blond hair to “Spanish Flanders” and Blackthorne is careful not to correct him; if he did not come on a Portuguese ship it must have been Spanish – again, it never occurs to the priest another European nation might be sailing these waters for the first time.) It all seems to be a complicated nationalistic rivalry (the King of Spain is also King of Portugal at the moment, but it’s only a personal union and the Portuguese are still touchy about it, etc.), combined with a conflict in the two orders’ priorities (the Franciscans want to convert the masses, the Jesuits want to cozy up to the princes and rajahs and mandarins and daimyo). Non-converted Japanese prefer the Jesuits at least for appearance and smell; they call the Franciscans the “Barefoot Hairies.” > > Again, not sure how historical any of that is, though I know Blackthorne at least was based on a real person, [William Adams.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Adams_(sailor)) Most of the characters in _Shogun_ are based on real people, and the events depicted are loosely true. I wouldn’t take any of the characterizations as gospel, though, and the less politically important the character, the less seriously I’d take it, because there are fewer actual historical records. That book is what got me started reading about European trade in the Indies. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/into-the-fire-why-was-is-jesuitism-so-hated/601491.md?page=1)