# Introducing the former Bruce Jenner **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 1, 2015, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361 "2015-06-01T17:26:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![soonerblue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/soonerblue/32/3302_2.png) [@soonerblue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/soonerblue)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361/221 "2015-06-09T01:55:41Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Thank you for fighting the good fight, Broomstick. Kudos. Thank you both for trying to clear up some of our misconceptions and misunderstandings about transgender issues … which on my part (the 50’s cheesecake remark) stemmed from ignorance and not bigotry. As I said up-thread, this subject is uncharted territory … so many people don’t know a transgender person, have never talked to one, are influenced by TV/film stereotypes, and need to be enlightened. First comes dialogue, then empathy, then progress … because, in the midst of all this tabloid titillation, we shouldn’t forget that this is an important civil rights issue. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361/222 "2015-06-09T04:48:26Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > And males don’t feel this way? That’s a disappointing comment from you **Una**. There’s no need to be nasty towards me, as I didn’t say at all that men didn’t feel that way. I said only “more.” I also am fully aware that I’m making an over broad generalization. I’m doing this because it’s very difficult to define how I feel. I think if you look at surveys of the general population of most nations women are _seen as_ or _viewed as_ having fewer aggressive qualities than men. The science of the influence of testosterone and estradiol on moods is well-established and settled. Any attempt to claim broadly that the two genders are the same in terms of expressed empathy and overall demeanor and aggressiveness seems to be like arguing that water isn’t wet. Some men can be the kindest, gentlest, most caring and nurturing people you will ever meet. I’ve met many. But I’m trying to throw out a blanket statement about a very vague mental concept of “what gender do I belong to.” I think that claiming that I said that ALL men, everywhere, were not capable of just as great or greater of the “soft” feelings was improper. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361/223 "2015-06-09T04:59:57Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > The current practice, at least in theory, is to whenever possible ask the person his/her preference and go with that until told otherwise. If asking is not possible, make a best guess based on appearance/presentation. Clear up my confusion please. My understanding is that transvestites want to appear as members of the opposite sex but do not wish to be a member of the opposite sex. So a male transvestite would still identify as a man even when wearing a woman’s clothing and cosmetics. So wouldn’t it be correct to refer to such a person as he, even if they are in full drag? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361/224 "2015-06-09T05:06:27Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Indeed. It seems quite unusual to see a woman over 50 embracing her natural grey, speckled, or white hair. Ironically, there’s apparently a [trend](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgrwCOxjx-Q) among some young people of dying their hair gray. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361/225 "2015-06-09T07:22:35Z")
Think of it this way: if you woke up tomorrow in the body of the opposite sex, wouldn’t you fucking freak out? Wouldn’t YOU consider yourself still a man, or a woman? And seriously, what’s it to you if someone is transgender? Honestly, who cares? I mean, why do people get so up in arms about this? Caitlyn isn’t hurting anyone. I can understand why it would be a big deal for family and friends. (And I imagine that for a marriage, having your spouse come out as transgender would, to put it mildly, fucking suck.) But is it hurting you? It is affecting you in anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361/226 "2015-06-09T07:57:17Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > And seriously, what’s it to you if someone is transgender? Honestly, who cares? I mean, why do people get so up in arms about this? Caitlyn isn’t hurting anyone. I can understand why it would be a big deal for family and friends. (And I imagine that for a marriage, having your spouse come out as transgender would, to put it mildly, fucking suck.) But is it hurting you? It is affecting you in anyway? I think some people just have that “dogs and cats living together” mentality. They see the world as being a certain way. And when other people challenge one of their beliefs about how the world is, they see it as a challenge to their entire belief system. If men can become women today, who knows what will happen next week? So they want to draw the line and stop any changes. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361/227 "2015-06-09T09:43:37Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > And males don’t feel this way? That’s a disappointing comment from you **Una**. > > I can assure you a lot of males are quite capable of these emotions as well. That is not what she said and you know it. On the flip side, despite some rather masculine attributes in myself, from superior spatial abilities to an interest in mechanical things over fashion and almost never dressing in a feminine manner I have never _doubted_ I’m a woman. Sort of the flip of Una, although not exactly. Una didn’t say men were incapable of such emotions, but it would be silly to state that _in our society_ such traits are seen as often or to the same degree in the typical man as the typical women. That is _why_ we have terms like “masculine”, “feminine”, and “genderqueer”. It wasn’t that long ago that “wrong” traits were suppressed in people. Me, I only got sent to charm school a couple times and argued with a lot of authority figures. Other people have been sent to mental institutions and punished when they failed to confirm to some societal ideal. These weren’t people most of us would consider mentally ill: lesbians, tomboys, “defiant” girls and so on. (Note that I am talking about women here - not sure what happened to non-conforming boys but I’m sure it wasn’t any more pleasant). You asked why Una felt like a woman. She listed off some traits that in our society have been considered womanly traits. Then you call her on it? Why? Nowhere did she say men _can’t_ have such traits, just that those were part of what made _her_ feel like a woman. It’s opinion about herself, not a dissertation on the rest of society. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361/228 "2015-06-09T09:55:59Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Clear up my confusion please. My understanding is that transvestites want to appear as members of the opposite sex but do not wish to be a member of the opposite sex. So a male transvestite would still identify as a man even when wearing a woman’s clothing and cosmetics. So wouldn’t it be correct to refer to such a person as he, even if they are in full drag? That’s another situation where asking “which pronouns would you prefer?” might be appropriate. Transvestism incorporates a certain amount of acting. I’m far from an authority on it, but it’s my understanding that some men prefer to be referred to in feminine terms when they’re in the role, and some are very clear they’re men no matter how feminine the appearance. I recall an interview with RuPaul once where he said that people seemed to think he’d clean house in high heels and pearls but that outside of his performances he dressed and acted like a pretty ordinary man. This is in contrast with someone transgender, who lives the “role” 24/7 because it’s not a role, it’s who they are. At least that’s my understanding - I’m not an expert on any of this, just someone who’s been observing from the sidelines for awhile. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361/229 "2015-06-09T13:28:06Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Part of the answer can be found if you try to answer the question - what makes you feel you are a woman? > > I describe my feelings thus: since I was very young I’ve just simply felt that I “belonged” in the company of other girls. I had a feeling from body language and undefined presence that I simply was one of them. I guess nothing in particular makes me feel like a woman, and it’s tough because I try to avoid stereotypes about men and women. I work with 99% women and have to gently object when cliches about men are voiced. And plenty of women are more comfortable around men and have few female friends. Ultimately though, I do see the whole idea of a continuum with people all along it. > [@Guinistasia](#): > > And seriously, what’s it to you if someone is transgender? Honestly, who cares? I mean, why do people get so up in arms about this? I for one don’t care – I’ll take people at their word even if I don’t always understand. I don’t think it hurts to ask questions about it. ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361/230 "2015-06-09T13:55:24Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > And males don’t feel this way? That’s a disappointing comment from you **Una**. > > I can assure you a lot of males are quite capable of these emotions as well. and you can see from replies that it takes a woman to feel your comment was bitchy and insensitive rather than direct and to the point right? :rolleyes: 😉 ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361/231 "2015-06-09T14:35:46Z")
If it’s not too far off topic can someone explain this term “ciswoman” to me? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361/232 "2015-06-09T14:41:11Z")
> [@well\_he\_s\_back](#): > > If it’s not too far off topic can someone explain this term “ciswoman” to me? “Cis” is being used as a prefix to indicate that the physical gender matches up with the sex that was assigned at birth, so that the plumbing matches up with the wiring. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361/233 "2015-06-09T16:10:39Z")
thanks Ethilrist. now I’m off to research the origin of this weird prefix. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361/234 "2015-06-09T16:21:20Z")
There’s nothing weird about it. [Cis and trans are counterparts, in all contexts.](http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cis-) ---
**Author:** ![PeskiPiksi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e495f1/32.png) [@PeskiPiksi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PeskiPiksi)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361/235 "2015-06-09T16:39:22Z")
How do you pronounce that? Is it like the first syllable in scissors or more like “sigh?” ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361/236 "2015-06-09T17:08:50Z")
> [@PeskiPiksi](#): > > How do you pronounce that? Is it like the first syllable in scissors or more like “sigh?” “Sis” as in “Sister”. ---
**Author:** ![Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hershele_Ostropoler)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361/237 "2015-06-09T17:45:34Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > And males don’t feel this way? That’s a disappointing comment from you **Una**. > > I can assure you a lot of males are quite capable of these emotions as well. That does raise a chicken-and-egg question: in a society in which, e.g., empathy were part of how maleness was constructed, rather than femaleness, would empathic female-assigned people be trans men, or would trans men be empathic? There are trans butch lesbians, but I don’t know if there are very many of them. ---
**Author:** ![PeskiPiksi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e495f1/32.png) [@PeskiPiksi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PeskiPiksi)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361/238 "2015-06-09T19:07:07Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > “Sis” as in “Sister”. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361/239 "2015-06-09T19:22:31Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > That’s another situation where asking “which pronouns would you prefer?” might be appropriate. Personal preference is usually the best indicator but it’s not always possible to ask a person what they prefer. So we need a default assumption to fall back on. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361/240 "2015-06-09T20:49:51Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > There’s no need to be nasty towards me, as I didn’t say at all that men didn’t feel that way. I said only “more.” … I wasn’t trying to be nasty at all. All male role models in my life have been nurturing, caring, healing, and empathetic individuals. I know I’m certainly more like this than my ex is. She can be very cold-hearted and so can a lot of females. > [@Broomstick](#): > > That is not what she said and you know it. I’m not sure I like being told what I thought actually. > [@](#): > > You asked why Una felt like a woman. No I didn’t. Someone else did: not me. > [@](#): > > She listed off some traits that in our society have been considered womanly traits. Then you call her on it? Why? Nowhere did she say men _can’t_ have such traits, just that those were part of what made _her_ feel like a woman. It’s opinion about herself, not a dissertation on the rest of society. We have a history here of not trying to paint everyone with the same brush. That’s pretty much all I was going for. So, lots of men are nurturing, caring and empathetic, and lots of women aren’t. I don’t even think that there’s a statistical correlation actually. Some men are macho assholes and some women are bitches. I think the rest of us just fall somewhere along the continuum between the two. No big deal. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361.md?page=13)