# Introducing the former Bruce Jenner **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 1, 2015, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361 "2015-06-01T17:26:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361/81 "2015-06-02T01:28:29Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Well, the transition isn’t complete until little willy goes to that sausage grinder in the sky. 😉 Forget it, it’s not even worth it. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361/82 "2015-06-02T01:29:43Z")
I refuse to read the article on the grounds that it’s Vanity Fair. I wish Caitlyn the best and wish everybody would refer to her by the proper female pronouns. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361/83 "2015-06-02T01:33:18Z")
so, i have a lot of questions i hope you might have opinions on. first of all, how seriously do we take all this? everyone on FB and in social media is just going on about how brave Bruce-lina-belinda-agnes-Caityln is. really? brave? so we have a family who is famous for the sake of being famous, who has not offered anything other than being a sideshow, now using transgender to pump more life into the new and improved Jenner-Kardashian sideshow. for the record, people in the trans-gen community have expressed great concerns that this ordeal is being treated like some kind of “weird show” to be gawked at. and Bruce is making it into a literal show, a whole new reality series, to capitalize on it, especially to cash in. for me, it’s hard to say anything but “attention whore.” granted, clearly the dude has some identity issues, and possibly a self-alteration addiction. he has been messing up his face for years now, so the surgical aspect of it doesn’t seem like much of a commitment on his part. that said, how serious does that make him a transgender? i realize a lot of cases of trans-gen do not result in removal of the penis–and he’s made it clear he plans on keeping his. but at the same time, that’s kind of a wavering commitment and for me at least calls into doubt how far this is going to go. how serious do we take the rest of it? he has boobs now–is he going to keep them forever? is he ONLY going to be Caitlyn from now on? He has been reported just this year claiming he has decided on many other names, now this is the one? is this his new LEGAL designation? is he pursuing LEGALLY being a woman? Is he a woman around the house when the cameras are off? Would he even be as motivated then? i know i read a statement from his attorney RE: his wrongful death litigation that he be referred to as “HE” for those court proceedings. So in at least some facets of life, he is insisting on still being a man. Does being trans-gender afford you the luxury of shifting back and forth whenever you want, depending on the social context? That doesn’t seem very “brave.” i dunno. i feel sick there’s some poor kid in some po-dunk town agonizing over his gender confusion to the point he’s contemplating suicide. and for a family who is rich and famous for the sake of being rich and famous to parlay this kind of thing into a new mechanism to further their media presence bothers me a lot. To call that “brave” is an affront to my comment sense. if one can build some case that this will in some way help that hypothetical kid who is really suffering over his identity, i’m all ears. awareness others are going through it doesn’t do much for me. the media being HYPER interested in transgender in this cases doesn’t show any level of acceptance or promotion to mainstream–it’s being treated like a spectacle. because that’s how Jenner has built it. to me, it’s about as brave as Paris Hilton releasing her own sex tapes to keep the light on her. she did as much for sexual empowerment and feminism as i think Jenner is doing for the transgender community. This is the same guy who is fighting tooth and nail to not owe a red cent to the family of the woman he killed by driving distracted. A case where he has specifically asked to be called a man (according to reports). so. ?? ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361/84 "2015-06-02T01:41:12Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > previously the most well known trans person was probably Lana Wachowski who was a director of the Matrix movies. > > [The Wachowskis - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wachowskis) Yep. I heard about Larry’s desire to be a lady long before he transitioned into Lana. I thought the whole thing was just tabloid gossip. I guess I was wrong. I still think of them as the Wachowski Brothers, though. Then again, only Cloud Atlas wasn’t crap since the Matrix movies(which were credited as brothers). ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361/85 "2015-06-02T01:55:24Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > I refuse to read the article on the grounds that it’s Vanity Fair. > > I wish Caitlyn the best and wish everybody would refer to her by the proper female pronouns. calm down. **“…through a representative Jenner requested the media still be refer to him as “he” until they’re instructed otherwise.”** > **[Bruce Jenner fights wrongful-death lawsuit in fatal Malibu crash](https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-bruce-jenner-lawsuit-in-fatal-malibu-crash-20150528-story.html)** > > Bruce Jenner does not owe any money to the adult stepchildren of a woman who was killed in a multi-car crash in Malibu after Jenner’s vehicle rear-ended her, according to a court filing from his attorney. ---
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361/86 "2015-06-02T02:20:15Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > so first of all, how seriously do we take all this? I would say fairly seriously; people don’t go through gender transition for publicity. > [@](#): > > i realize a lot of cases of trans-gen do not result in removal of the penis–and he’s made it clear he plans on keeping his. but at the same time, that’s kind of a wavering commitment and for me at least calls into doubt how far this is going to go. She’s said that whether or not she has gender reassignment surgery is a private matter. That is a far cry from saying she is not having the surgery. If you find anywhere that she said she is not planning on the surgery-PLMK, although it doesn’t matter at all. > [@](#): > > how serious do we take the rest of it? he has boobs now–is he going to keep them forever? is he ONLY going to be Caitlyn from now on? He has been reported just this year claiming he has decided on many other names, now this is the one? I have not seen anywhere that she has revealed a name before now; there has only been speculation by others. In fact, during the Sawyer interview, Jenner only used the term “her”. Again, provide a cite that there were other names? > [@](#): > > i know i read a statement from his attorney RE: his wrongful death litigation that he be referred to as “HE” for those court proceedings. So in at least some facets of life, he is insisting on still being a man. Does being trans-gender afford you the luxury of shifting back and forth whenever you want, depending on the social context? That doesn’t seem very “brave.” Do you really think somebody undergoes a 10-hour facial feminization surgery in order to “shift back and forth”? That’s not something easily (or even possibly) undone. You are aware that she started transitioning 30 years ago? Back before there was any publicity, before the Kardashians, before reality television, she took hormones for 5 years, basically abandoned her family and a successful life but then didn’t have the courage to follow through. I think it shows just how much courage it takes that she was able to do this _despite_ the increased publicity. Again, nobody is going to undergo a gender transition for publicity purposes. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361/87 "2015-06-02T02:51:15Z")
calling this a publicity stunt is the dumbest thing I’ve heard in a long while. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361/88 "2015-06-02T02:54:17Z")
this forum is pretty aggravating about how everyone thinks everyone else should be their google-pet. you could google some of this yourself, since you are attesting to know. [Bruce Jenner Has No Plans To Remove Penis](http://hollywoodlife.com/2015/05/19/kuwtk-bruce-jenner-removing-penis-sex-change-transition-video/) _**Kim asked the big question: Will Bruce undergo sex reassignment surgery? Meaning, remove the “little thing” down there, as Bruce said? His answer: “No.”**_ you can do the rest, if you genuinely want to know what you’re on about. “bruce jenner agnes.” “bruce jenner [Belinda](http://www.inquisitr.com/1825880/belinda-jenner-is-bruce-jenners-new-transgender-name-is-it-too-much-like-ex-wife-linda-thompson/).” ^that’s just one article. google it, there are others. [Here](http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-bruce-jenner-lawsuit-in-fatal-malibu-crash-20150528-story.html)is (again) the article where he says people should refer to HIM as a “he” until otherwise directed (which was published 3 days ago). If you’re a woman, you stick with “she, her, call me ma’am,” etc. He, emphasis on HE is himself directing people to call him “he.” I’m calling that shifting back and forth. Let’s talk about plastic surgery among the Hollywood crowd, such as Bruce. Would I undergo such surgery for x amount of hours for simple aesthetic reasons? For vanity? No. Would he? Obviously. Here are a list of other reasons people like him go under drastic surgeries: \*boobs too small \*boobs too big \*no boobs to start with \*calve implants \*pec implants \*bicept implants \*this nose just doesn’t do it for me \*my eyes were the wrong color \*i want to look like a cat \*i want to be a white person and etc. Commitment to plastic surgery does not lend any credibility to the situation. And for that matter, people are willing to do literally–and I am using that term _literally_–anything for publicity/fame/money. If Bruce wasn’t doing this for the publicity, he should have maybe not coordinated doing it specifically with production of his reality show he intends to profit from based on his transition. There is no possible spin anyone can put on this to say he is not intentionally profiting off this. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361/89 "2015-06-02T02:59:34Z")
the best part of this is that a very private matter that SHOULDN’T be any of our business was forcefully made into our business through great effort by the man himself, who plans on turning the event into a tv show. How could anyone construe that as a publicity stunt? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361/90 "2015-06-02T05:33:59Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > And having not undergone sexual reassignment surgery, what are the prospects for finding a woman who’s either gay but cool with sex with a woman who has testicles and a penis, or a woman who’s attracted to men but fine with a partner who looks like a woman and has boobs? Oh, they’re out there, and with hir celebrity, Jenner can be found by some of them. ---
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361/91 "2015-06-02T06:22:23Z")
**dontbeso jumpy** -I still disagree with you. Saying there is no set date YET for SRS does not equal not planning to get it done. If you bothered to watch the Diane Sawyer interview you would see that she made it clear that it is something that she is considering but does not want to make public. Again, however, being transgendered refers to gender identification and does not depend on surgery. Second, I don’t accept tabloids as cites. Show me where Jenner, in her own words, suggests any name other than Caitlyn and I will consider it. Finally, you left a part of the quote in the latimes article: > [@](#): > > **In an ABC interview with Diane Sawyer on April 24** , Jenner revealed he identifies as a woman. But through a representative Jenner requested the media still be refer to him as “he” until they’re instructed otherwise. It is true that at the time of the Sawyer interview, Jenner requested that male pronouns be used and has not formally requested a change since. This is a little different than what you said which was: > [@](#): > > RE: his wrongful death litigation that he be referred to as “HE” for those court proceedings However, you are free to believe that this is all done for publicity. I will let you in on a little secret I have found. Nothing is being forcibly made your business, as you put it. You are free to not read any articles, not google anything about Jenner and not watch her reality television series. If you choose to read the articles and watch the shows than you are welcome to your opinion that she is doing this all for publicity and I am free to disagree with your assessment. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361/92 "2015-06-02T09:00:25Z")
[Here’s an interesting shot of Jenner in a Porsche.](https://s.yimg.com/cd/resizer/2.0/FIT_TO_WIDTH-w540/2fd0c1f26808fb00aa79bc1bb9df23685c3597f1.jpg) Dang! I’d never have guessed in a million years that this was the same guy in baggy pants and camo slippers photographed by the media buying coffee and pumping gas the last several months. I’d say that if you’re going to transition into being a woman you could do worse than consult with Jenner as to how to go about it. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361/93 "2015-06-02T09:26:44Z")
How is it “brave” to wait until the social environment favored your coming out? ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361/94 "2015-06-02T09:30:23Z")
I’m really pro people being happy and at peace with themselves. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361/95 "2015-06-02T11:47:44Z")
> [@Emiliana](#): > > Everyone knows that ALL Vanity Fair photos are photoshopped, right? Every last one of them. Virtually every published photo has had some Photoshop work done on it. Not necessarily for the purpose of deception; it’s simply a tool for photographers and art directors. I, myself, use Photoshop in my work, and I’m not trying to put anything over on anyone. But If I had Jenner’s team of high-end professionals working on me, I’d be beautiful too . . . with or without surgery. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361/96 "2015-06-02T12:03:09Z")
> [@Eliahna](#): > > Still, “Caitlyn Jenner” is a lovely name and perhaps her former stepdaughter could get some tips on names before she churns out another lame pun like North West. Is that even a pun? It’s not, is it? It’s just a direction. Let’s just wait and see if they name the kid South. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361/97 "2015-06-02T12:06:51Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > calm down. > > **“…through a representative Jenner requested the media still be refer to him as “he” until they’re instructed otherwise.”** > > [Bruce Jenner fights wrongful-death lawsuit in fatal Malibu crash](http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-bruce-jenner-lawsuit-in-fatal-malibu-crash-20150528-story.html) You might not realize that article is from a month ago, and that this thread is about something that happened this past weekend. And that this past weekend, Caitlyn asked that she be referred to using female pronouns & such. The media should consider itself instructed otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361/98 "2015-06-02T12:18:13Z")
> [@MoonMoon](#): > > :rolleyes: Welcome to womanhood, Caitlyn, as you will see, the most important thing about a woman is whether random dudes find her attractive and worthy of boning. Sadly true. [And it works the other way too](http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/05/male-privilege-trans-men/). ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361/99 "2015-06-02T12:55:41Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > the best part of this is that a very private matter that SHOULDN’T be any of our business was forcefully made into our business through great effort by the man himself, who plans on turning the event into a tv show. How could anyone construe that as a publicity stunt? Exactly. The idea that Bruce/Caitlyn has, wants, or deserves even the smallest degree of privacy is laughably naiive. The whole damn family is a bunch of publicity whores, he/she included. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361/100 "2015-06-02T13:34:33Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > \ Reality is hard. But if he takes enough hormones, Jenner won’t be. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/introducing-the-former-bruce-jenner/721361.md?page=6)