# Intruder in your home at 3 AM - if you live in Toronto, don't hurt the perp . . . **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 1, 2012, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350 "2012-09-01T11:13:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/181 "2012-09-08T14:46:58Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > I agree. I’d argue that the recent [Ferrie](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9524766/Couple-who-shot-masked-burglars-can-hold-their-heads-high.html) case is a good example of a reasonable process. Homeowner shoots burglar with shotgun. Police arrest all parties whilst facts are investigated. Prosecution service determines it was entirely legit, reasonable force was used, and homeowners are widely praised by the press, police and MPs. Word. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/182 "2012-09-08T16:19:45Z")
> [@kwimby](#): > > Waiting to hear from all the Dopers out there inclined to answer the door in the middle of the night without a gun… Funny story actually. Some big black guy broke into our house a few years ago. It was summer and the door was kept on a latch, rather than locked. He broke the latch by pushing the door. I was up playing WoW or something and assumed my dad went nuts because I woke him up, so I switched off the PC. Then I hear a mumbled apology and someone walking out of the house. Turns out he lived the road over and was drunk or high or something and went into the wrong house. Same thing has happened with another drunk man this summer (well, he didn’t break in, but rang the doorbell three times in the space of three hours or so, since his ex-wife the road over kept telling him she wasn’t his ex-wife). We’re in a housing development where the two roads look almost identical. He tried our neighbour, a 14 year old girl whose mother was at work, stuck his foot in the door and then collapsed into her hallway (she ran into the living room). I’m glad both of these people are still alive. Well, I assume they’re still alive. More likely to be killed by a family member than a stranger, after all. Do you draw your handgun at family reunions? ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/183 "2012-09-08T17:20:39Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > I agree. I’d argue that the recent [Ferrie](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9524766/Couple-who-shot-masked-burglars-can-hold-their-heads-high.html) case is a good example of a reasonable process. Homeowner shoots burglar with shotgun. Police arrest all parties whilst facts are investigated. Prosecution service determines it was entirely legit, reasonable force was used, and homeowners are widely praised by the press, police and MPs. Some jobs will fire you if you are arrested, they might rehire you if no charges are filed but you’re still out thousands in wages. ---
**Author:** ![kwimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@kwimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kwimby)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/184 "2012-09-08T19:24:20Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > … the process we use to move heaven and earth to ensure that innocent people are not convicted. Sure must be a lot of movin’ to do. More reasonable people believe it’s best to keep things clearly defined inasmuch as is possible when it comes to things like victim’s rights. Your lectures on the rights of criminals would be better received if you were more able to distinguish between criminals and their victims. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/185 "2012-09-09T01:58:44Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > There is much wrong with this. For starters, if you encounter someone in your home in the middle of the night, I kinda doubt that you have enough time, and levelheadedness, to think about the pros and cons of your response. Basically, you are scared shitless and running on more adrenalin than you’ve ever experienced. You are _not_ thinking; you are reacting in panic mode. Which leads to the second major problem with all this - would any judge/jury in his/her/its right mind convict this guy? What are the Toronto police trying to do by charging him? Toronto cops have lost a HUGE amount of respect lately (corruption, multiple instances of shooting unarmed mental patients, and especially their shameful actions at the G20 protests). If this guy gets convicted, the little good will they still enjoy among Torontonians will take another hit. (The reader comments to the linked article provide some sense of the way the public feels about this case. In a word, they are outraged.). > > And, not that it would be allowed as evidence in the homeowner’s trial, the intruder had a criminal record which included robbery and assault - not the type of character anyone should try to “talk down” while waiting for the cops to appear. It also makes his credibility just a tad suspect. Look, basically this boils down to an equation that gets bandied about, better to be tried by twelve, than carried by six. Now its piper paying time and the twelve jurors are gonna do their part of the equation. So what I expect will go down, is that this guy is going to be found guilty, but do no time. Our society has to balance the political ramifications of an empowered populace, as in the greater threat is the tacit agreement between the cops and home owners, that castle doctrine will very much be acceptable, even if the written law states otherwise. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/186 "2012-09-09T02:17:54Z")
> [@Dr\_Doom](#): > > I’m kinda glad we value life in Canada, and encourage our citizens to NOT kill each other just because they might have an excuse (like being stolen from). > > I also kinda feel sorry for people who answer their door with a gun in their hand; must be a horrible way to live. > > I just can’t fathom it. > [@Mijin](#): > > Brit here and I share the same sense of disbelief. Rest assured, there are a number of us Americans who think his attitude is awful and sad as well. I don’t own a gun. I don’t live in fear in my own home. I wouldn’t want to live with the kind of fear that would make me feel I NEEDED a gun. ---
**Author:** ![kwimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@kwimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kwimby)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/187 "2012-09-09T02:44:41Z")
Rest assured, if the bad guy(s) ever comes to visit you’ll change your mind. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/188 "2012-09-09T11:03:46Z")
> [@kwimby](#): > > Rest assured, if the bad guy(s) ever comes to visit you’ll change your mind. No, I didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/189 "2012-09-09T13:22:10Z")
There have only been two times I answered the door with a gun in hand. Both times it was when someone was pounding the hell out of my door past midnight. Both times I held the gun behind the door, pointed at the floor, as I opened the door. Both times I didn’t need it, but I was protected and no one was needlessly scared nor in danger of an accidental discharge. My system works. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/190 "2012-09-09T17:46:38Z")
> [@kwimby](#): > > Rest assured, if the bad guy(s) ever comes to visit you’ll change your mind. Been there, dude. I can’t fathom how me brandishing a gun could have made the situation better. Guess what, I also occasionally go down to Detroit - without a gun. Horrors. You may think that’s foolish, but I like to think of it as “unprovocative.” ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/191 "2012-09-09T21:15:47Z")
> [@Jenaroph](#): > > Been there, dude. I can’t fathom how me brandishing a gun could have made the situation better. > > Guess what, I also occasionally go down to Detroit - without a gun. Horrors. You may think that’s foolish, but I like to think of it as “unprovocative.” You don’t brandish it, you use it. There is a big difference from going to high crime areas and a home invader in your house in the middle of the night. ---
**Author:** ![kwimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@kwimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kwimby)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/192 "2012-09-09T23:41:53Z")
> [@Jenaroph](#): > > I also occasionally go down to Detroit - without a gun. I’d like to see what you “brandish” in Detroit. I agree wholeheartedly - you have no business anywhere near a firearm. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/193 "2012-09-10T18:23:49Z")
> [@grude](#): > > There is a big difference from going to high crime areas and a home invader in your house in the middle of the night. Well the similarity as I see it is, in either situation, I’m not living in fear. > [@kwimby](#): > > I’d like to see what you “brandish” in Detroit. Nothing. > [@](#): > > I agree wholeheartedly - you have no business anywhere near a firearm. Not sure where you got the idea that I don’t have any business handling a firearm from the statement that I don’t feel I need one, but, whatever dude. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/194 "2012-09-10T22:13:16Z")
As far as bad guys in the home in the middle of the night in Toronto goes, I’ve experienced quite a bit of that. My friends and I were part of a frat at U of T that had been inactive for many years but still had some funds in the bank, so we bought a house – a delapidated drug rehab centre run by the Church of Scientology, situated beside a half-way house and across the street from an aboriginal support centre. It’s condition was very poor (as in shit on the bathroom walls and ceiling – how the hell do you get shit on the ceiling unless you are throwing it like a monkey?), so we gutted the place – took out most of the doors, windows, floors (but not beams), interior walls, much of the wiring, much of the plumming including the water line, and the furnace, leaving a shell of a building. We finished gutting the place just as the snow started flying, and then the city shut down the renovations because we had the wrong building permit. (We had a residential permit but should have had a commercial permit. The ironic thing about having the wrong permit was that the lawer who obtained it for us was a name partner in what was then the number two corporate and comercial firm in the country). The proper building permit didn’t come through until the spring. That made for a really cold winter for us, what with the lack of windows, doors, and heat. One of the guys woke up in the middle of a night to find a raccoon curled up against him. It was warm, so he petted it thinking it was a cat and went back to sleep, only to wake up again in the morning to find it still there. The lack of doors and windows also made for a lot of burglaries and vagrants. We routinely chased people out of the house, many of whom where drugged up. One morning I came across a vagrant in the third floor bathtub, who complained to me that it was too cold and that I should turn up the heat. Another time, one of the guys had to chase a fellow out of the place with a crowbar. It got a bit rough on occasion. None of us considered bring a gun in the house. Some of us had FAC permits and guns for hunting at our parents’ homes, but we never brought them into the frat house. There simply was not a need, for we were not the sort to shoot people for being where the had no right to be, or to shoot people who stole our belongings. Had there been a significant risk to our lives, we simply would not have continued to weather it out in that place, rather than go rambo in the wild west. ---
**Author:** ![kwimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@kwimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kwimby)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/195 "2012-09-11T17:38:12Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > …but we never brought them into the frat house. There simply was not a need,… Ya think? A frat house without doors and windows in a bad neighborhood - really? Good time spent typing that up. Almost TLDR IMHO, besides the fact that as usual, it does nothing for the discussion. This applies to the thread topic, or 99.999% of all other homeowners concerned about home security how? Sheeesh. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Tarwater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de0a6/32.png) [@Tarwater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tarwater)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/196 "2012-09-11T17:44:33Z")
Yeah. Keep fucking that chicken, **kwimby.** ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/197 "2012-09-11T17:48:19Z")
But they threatened a guy with a crowbar, sounds like excessive force. ---
**Author:** ![kwimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@kwimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kwimby)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/198 "2012-09-11T18:01:11Z")
> [@Tarwater](#): > > Yeah. Keep fucking that chicken, **kwimby.** If by “chicken(s)” you mean posters in this thread like muffn, then please let me elaborate… Not only is this cretin stupid enough to completely botch a renovation job based on a paperwork snafu, him and his buds are also “man” enough to live at an insecure building defending themselves there with only basic tools of weaponry! Isn’t that special!? 😛 Of course the n’er-do-wells in that jurisdiction don’t expect much in the way of armed resistance, so the playing field is somewhat leveled, I suppose. Fun times, huh? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/199 "2012-09-11T18:21:23Z")
Internet tough guy ftw… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![kwimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@kwimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kwimby)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/200 "2012-09-11T18:54:40Z")
> [@grude](#): > > But they threatened a guy with a crowbar, sounds like excessive force. And about the lamest example for circular reasoning I’ve seen so far this week: “We didn’t need guns because the threat was not deadly.” And they were basically invited in because we had no doors. Duh. That right there means NOBODY needs guns for home defense. By this logic, even STABBING somebody is probably going to be a bad idea. :smack: At least I led you back to the thread topic. You can thank me for that! 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350.md?page=11)