# Intruder in your home at 3 AM - if you live in Toronto, don't hurt the perp . . . **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 1, 2012, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350 "2012-09-01T11:13:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/61 "2012-09-02T23:20:12Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Leaving the home is unlikely to be an emotionally-valid response; and in situations that fast, people _must_ respond instantly and emotionally, because the mind can’t think fast enough. > > I do not expect civilians, armed or otherwise, the display the same presence of mind I expect of police - and I’m even a little generous to police. Attack them or their families, and it’s reasonable to expect that they will retaliate until you are utterly incapable of doing anything to them. Let me throw out a realistic scenario because I think maybe both sides are imagining that the other position is more absolute than it is. There’s some noise in your kitchen. You pick up the nearest potential weapon; a hammer, and quietly move towards the kitchen and switch on the light. There’s an intruder in your kitchen! You swing the hammer a number of times in a panicked flurry, and get three good hits on him. He’s now down on the ground saying “Stop! Please!” and so on. Now, no-one is saying that it’s now Situation Safe – go ahead and turn your back on him. Nor are we saying you’re at fault for doing what you’ve done so far. But now, absolutely, you have a choice. I firmly believe you could collect your thoughts enough to decide whether to be in a position to hit him again while calling the cops, or deciding to smash his face in while he’s down. The latter would be the wrong choice IMO. But only a slight change to the scenario would make extreme force completely understandable e.g. you _don’t_ turn on your kitchen light and end up face to face with the perp in the darkness. It’s more understandable here because it’s an even more panicked situation and one in which there is no natural point to stop (you need to stop what you’re doing to go turn on the light to see whether it’s safe to stop what you were doing). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/62 "2012-09-02T23:24:55Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I think if you ask a bunch of lawyers, the consensus will be that having the body of somebody you just stabbed to death on the scene when the police arrive is not usually a positive factor in your legal situation. > [@Oakminster](#): > > This lawyer has no problem with it in this state. We have a strong castle doctrine and a “stand your ground” law. That door on the front of my house is there to protect the burglar from me. If he crosses it, I have no duty to retreat. Right. It’s worth pointing out that some states allow, legally, the presumption that a person who breaks into your home is a deadly threat. ---
**Author:** ![Uber\_the\_Goober](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/58956e/32.png) [@Uber\_the\_Goober](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uber_the_Goober)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/63 "2012-09-03T00:05:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Right. It’s worth pointing out that some states allow, legally, the presumption that a person who breaks into your home is a deadly threat. I think that it’s worth pointing out that the majority of Americans, regardless of the legality, would presume that a person breaking into their home is a deadly threat. So…in addition to fewer witnesses meaning fewer lawsuits - let’s throw in that fewer bodies mean fewer questions to be asked in general. Let’s go all Dexter on it. 😃 If you’re planning on defending your home with deadly force, why not have a body-removal plan in place too? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/64 "2012-09-03T02:16:37Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > I think this is rather making a distinction without a difference. A burglar IS, by definition, a threat to you. This is the exact point that **Una** was making, and which you ignore. Strange you’d say I ignored Una’s post when you quoted my response to it. Now I’ll respond to yours. You claim that a burglar is, by definition, a threat. So how would you handle the two situations I described? > [@](#): > > You walk in the front door and you see a burglar fleeing out the back door. You just caught him robbing your house - can you shoot him in the back? Or you’ve already shot him once and he’s lying wounded on the floor - can you shoot him again to kill him? If your theory that a burglar is always a threat is correct, then both of these intruders are threats to you and you’re justified in shooting them. Do you agree? My belief, as I repeatedly posted, is that being a burglar does not always make you a threat. Most of the time, yes, but not always. And the two examples I gave describe situations where an intruder is a burglar but is not a realistic threat. In these cases, I say you do not have justification for shooting the burglar. Do you disagree? > [@Bricker](#): > > Right. It’s worth pointing out that some states allow, legally, the presumption that a person who breaks into your home is a deadly threat. Same questions I just asked smiling bandit. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/65 "2012-09-03T02:42:53Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Not when the guy is upstairs and you are downstairs. Not when the guy hollers at you to stop and obviously isn’t attacking, which is what is being alleged here. > > And I’ve had an intruder in another room of my home. You have plenty of time to think. The intruder was upstairs, with an old woman. There wasn’t time to stop and think. Nor is it reasonable to stop and think. Next, you’re going to tell people to “stop and think” when someone is bleeding to death, or drowning. In some cases, an immediate response is necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/66 "2012-09-03T04:04:43Z")
> [@](#): > > You walk in the front door and you see a burglar fleeing out the back door. You just caught him robbing your house - can you shoot him in the back? Or you’ve already shot him once and he’s lying wounded on the floor - can you shoot him again to kill him? If he’s already outside the home and running away, I won’t shoot. I suspect this is the most likely scenario I’d face. Any sane/sober burglar is going to haul ass when he hears our dogs going nuts before he even enters the home. In the other scenario, I’m unlikely to shoot a guy only once. I’d aim center-mass, and keep pulling the trigger until I get a click instead of a bang. This will take maybe 3-4 seconds, tops, and the guy should have multiple wounds before I’m out of ammo/he goes down. Considering that I load hollow points for home defense, and I damn sure ain’t gonna be rendering first aid, he’s probably dead or will be shortly. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/67 "2012-09-03T04:32:05Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > If he’s already outside the home and running away, I won’t shoot. I’m fine with this. It’s pretty much what I’ve been saying. I wouldn’t shoot a burglar if he’s not a threat. > [@Oakminster](#): > > In the other scenario, I’m unlikely to shoot a guy only once. I’d aim center-mass, and keep pulling the trigger until I get a click instead of a bang. This will take maybe 3-4 seconds, tops, and the guy should have multiple wounds before I’m out of ammo/he goes down. Considering that I load hollow points for home defense, and I damn sure ain’t gonna be rendering first aid, he’s probably dead or will be shortly. The second scenario was directed at Uber, who’s posted the following: > [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > I think the only problem is that he didn’t finish the guy off. If he had killed him _dead_, he couldn’t have whined about being mistreated by his victims. > [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > I’d say that’s correct, but slightly to the left of my point. > > Dead men tell no tales. > > “This guy broke in my home, tried to steal my things, and violently attacked me when I happened upon him. I defended myself, and it ended tragically.” In this case, the truth is molded by the perceptions of the only surviving witness. Nobody can argue it, as long as there aren’t forensics suggesting the body was stabbed thirty five times post-mortem and all that … but let’s not stretch our hypothetical too far here. > > Perfectly plausible. Plus, there’s no lawsuit from the perp claiming his rights to rob and pillage were infringed upon. > [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > So…in addition to fewer witnesses meaning fewer lawsuits - let’s throw in that fewer bodies mean fewer questions to be asked in general. > > Let’s go all Dexter on it. 😃 If you’re planning on defending your home with deadly force, why not have a body-removal plan in place too? If we take him at his word, he’s saying that if he had already shot and incapacitated a burglar, he would go ahead and shot the burglar again with the intent of killing him, in order to prevent the possibility that the burglar might file a lawsuit against him. And he would intentionally conceal what he had done. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/68 "2012-09-03T04:54:59Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > I think this is rather making a distinction without a difference. A burglar IS, by definition, a threat to you. This is the exact point that **Una** was making, and which you ignore. Err…sort of. My point was that they are a _potential_ deadly threat, and that the homeowner needs to be given the most possible benefit of the doubt. I gave examples where I said I would not shoot at someone who was clearly fleeing, or had clearly surrendered. I love human life, and have no burning desire to end or ruin someone else’s life over a TV set. Nonetheless, I will never again be a victim of a violent crime, nor will I allow others to be victims - if I can help it. So the criminal in our house 9 strikes out of 10 possible against them. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/69 "2012-09-03T05:53:33Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > What are the Toronto police trying to do by charging him? Obeying the letter of the law. See ss. 264.1 _et seq_. of the Criminal Code of Canada. Are they obeying the _spirit_ of the law? Tough to say. I perused the self-defence of persons and property provisions of the Criminal Code (ss. 34-42), and I can’t see where the defendant has a case. If I am reading the _Toronto Star_ story correctly, he stabbed the unarmed victim, who was cowering behind a door, multiple times with a kitchen knife. Yes, he is defending his property, but it seems to me that he is doing so with much more force than a Canadian court would normally allow in a “self-defence against an unarmed intruder” case. Would they allow it in this case? I don’t know. It will be interesting to watch, though. **Karl** , thanks for the heads-up. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/70 "2012-09-03T06:06:44Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Not when the guy is upstairs and you are downstairs. Not when the guy hollers at you to stop and obviously isn’t attacking, which is what is being alleged here. > > And I’ve had an intruder in another room of my home. You have plenty of time to think. Why the hell would you believe a burglar?! Remember the guy was right outside or right inside an occupied bedroom where someone was sleeping hello. Bullshit you have time to think, you have no time to think you’re awakened in a dark house with no clue how many intruders there are or what they intend, some places kidnapping for ransom is a realistic scenario. ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/71 "2012-09-03T07:01:43Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > No, you simply don’t know what you’re talking about. Barbecue made at home is typically superior to the restaurant variety. Educate yourself before you start talking down to other people. Been there, done that. I’ve had BBQ in many homes, even those with smoking equipment. And I’m not talking about the typical restaurant. I’m talking about places that just do BBQ and they have decades of “doing it every day” experience. Have you eaten at either the County Line or the Salt Lick in Texas and tried their BBQ? Or something you feel is comparable elsewhere? ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/72 "2012-09-03T09:08:08Z")
Random anecdote: guy I know from another forum posted a play by play of a person breaking into his house (unfamiliar male in a house without one). He got a baseball bat (he was English) and boffed the guy on the head with it as he was coming up the stairs. Turned out it was his sister’s boyfriend, she neglected to mention he’d be over that night. ---
**Author:** ![Cinnamon\_Imp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/58956e/32.png) [@Cinnamon\_Imp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cinnamon_Imp)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/73 "2012-09-03T10:19:58Z")
Ooops 🙂 What happened, was the boyfriend okay? Are they still together? And wasn’t it a cricket bat if he was English? 😉 Vaguely on-topic: a couple in England have been [charged with causing grevious bodily harm](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-19456928) after shooting four intruders in their home around midnight. I’m on the side of the shooters… ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/74 "2012-09-03T13:32:38Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > Been there, done that. I’ve had BBQ in many homes, even those with smoking equipment. And I’m not talking about the typical restaurant. I’m talking about places that just do BBQ and they have decades of “doing it every day” experience. > > Have you eaten at either the County Line or the Salt Lick in Texas and tried their BBQ? Or something you feel is comparable elsewhere? Yes. I’ve eaten at The County Line multipe times, and it speaks volumes about your knowledge of barbecue that you think it’s particularly outstanding. I’ve made barbecue in restaurants, and it’s almost logistically impossible to create a product there that matches the best stuff made in small batches. There’s a reason you hear a lot of competition barbecue people utter the phrase “It was pretty good, for restaurant Q.” ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/75 "2012-09-03T13:41:17Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > The intruder was upstairs, with an old woman. There wasn’t time to stop and think. Nor is it reasonable to stop and think. I didn’t see where the article mentioned Kimberly Walsh’s age. Kimberly Walsh told the police that Mahilal “had hold” of Johnson and was pushing him down the stairs. And Sarah Walsh told the police that Mahilal was trying to hold onto Johnson so police could arrest him. Mahilal may have been defending himself against a threat- but you can’t really conclude that from the quotes from his girlfriend and her mother in the article. They make it sound like he was trying to prevent Johnson from leaving and effect a citizen’s arrest ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/76 "2012-09-03T16:09:05Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Castle doctrine. No duty to retreat in your own home. > > Stand your ground. No duty to retreat anywhere within the jurisdiction that you are legally allowed to occupy. I’ll take “things that have nothing to do with the discussion because the incident occurred in Canada,” for $200, Alex. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/77 "2012-09-03T16:17:34Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’ll take “things that have nothing to do with the discussion because the incident occurred in Canada,” for $200, Alex. The Castle Doctrine isn’t exclusively American. That said, I don’t know what the law is in Toronto. Nor is it universal in the United States. Some states do have “duty to retreat” laws in effect, even in your home. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/78 "2012-09-03T16:24:52Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The Castle Doctrine isn’t exclusively American. That said, I don’t know what the law is in Toronto. I wouldn’t have been correcting the other guy if [I didn’t already know it didn’t apply](http://yourlaws.ca/criminal-code-canada/38-defence-personal-property). I’m also not sure where you got the idea that I thought the Castle Doctrine was exclusively American. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/79 "2012-09-03T16:58:13Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > I think that if it were me (at 3 AM with a stranger in my mother’s room) I’d get my baseball bat and crack him as hard as I possibly could over the head or back of the neck (catching the base of his skull if my aim is on). I’m not asking what you would do if it were you. I’m asking you what you think the legal (or moral if you want to do that too) standard should be for what kind of force you can use on an uninvited person in your house. Do you think "intruders in a house can be killed regardless of whether or not he’s a threat. Or do you think, “unless an intruder is directly threatening your life, you can’t kill him.” Or is it somewhere in between. I ask because I think it’s somewhere in between, and I’m more than willing to give the homeowner the benefit of the doubt. But that doesn’t mean that you get to kill anyone in your house. This case, like a vast majority of cases, falls in that middle ground. And until the facts come out, and the evidence is heard, I think it’s a bit premature to draw these grand conclusions about the legal system not letting your protect yourself in your own home. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/80 "2012-09-03T17:44:00Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’ll take “things that have nothing to do with the discussion because the incident occurred in Canada,” for $200, Alex. I think it is good to hear what other countries are doing, and hear what people from other countries think. It helps provide perspective. > [@Chefguy](#): > > Why is there a sub-thread about BBQ in here? We haven’t had a death penalty for any crime in Canada for fourteen years, and have not had a death penalty for a crime under the Criminal Code of Canada for thirty-six years. Instead, we BBQ the convicts alive. It cuts down on prison food costs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350.md?page=5)