# Intruder in your home at 3 AM - if you live in Toronto, don't hurt the perp . . . **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 1, 2012, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350 "2012-09-01T11:13:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/81 "2012-09-03T18:41:02Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I’m not asking what you would do if it were you. I’m asking you what you think the legal (or moral if you want to do that too) standard should be for what kind of force you can use on an uninvited person in your house. Do you think "intruders in a house can be killed regardless of whether or not he’s a threat. Or do you think, “unless an intruder is directly threatening your life, you can’t kill him.” Or is it somewhere in between. > > I ask because I think it’s somewhere in between, and I’m more than willing to give the homeowner the benefit of the doubt. But that doesn’t mean that you get to kill anyone in your house. This case, like a vast majority of cases, falls in that middle ground. And until the facts come out, and the evidence is heard, I think it’s a bit premature to draw these grand conclusions about the legal system not letting your protect yourself in your own home. Not necessarily directed at Hamlet, but others as well. How far do feel a homeowner is allowed to go to protect his family at 3AM? What if the homeowner insists the burglar remain until the police arrive and he refuses, choosing to abandon his felonious endeavors and evade capture? I’m not suggesting shooting someone you see jumping out a window, but someone you actually catch in the act of pocketing some family heirlooms from your dresser drawer for instance. I’m pretty sure I know what would happen if this case was in Texas. ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/82 "2012-09-03T18:49:08Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Yes. I’ve eaten at The County Line multipe times, and it speaks volumes about your knowledge of barbecue that you think it’s particularly outstanding. I’ve made barbecue in restaurants, and it’s almost logistically impossible to create a product there that matches the best stuff made in small batches. For the VAST majority of people, even accomplished cooks, where does County Line rate for BBQ compared to what they can make with the likely level of experience and equipment they have access to? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/83 "2012-09-03T18:54:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Right. It’s worth pointing out that some states allow, legally, the presumption that a person who breaks into your home is a deadly threat. Correct, but it is just a presumption. We don’t know all of the facts yet. If the burglar immediately drops to his face and screams, “I’m sorry, Please God don’t hurt me!” and sobs like a little girl, you can’t then run to the kitchen, grab a knife and skewer him. 🙂 The presumption is to protect the homeowner under iffy circumstances. No need to guess and end up dead because you need to establish that he is in your home to hurt you. You can presume it. But the facts may rebut that presumption. e.g. Drunk guy stumbled through your front door that you forgot to lock and passes out face first on the couch. You can’t put a bullet into the back of his head. I’m all for strong castle doctrine and stand your ground laws, but all facts need to be known first. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/84 "2012-09-03T19:55:33Z")
do we really need food snob bullshit in this thread? ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/85 "2012-09-03T20:23:21Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > do we really need food snob bullshit in this thread? Maybe if you ignore it, it will go away. But it does need more whiny, bitchy thread policing. ---
**Author:** ![SCSimmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e495f1/32.png) [@SCSimmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCSimmons)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/86 "2012-09-03T22:20:29Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > SIX rounds? If he had a real gun he coulda done it in two. “Yes, I understand he was charging towards you and your wife. But why did you shoot him _six times_?” “'Cause the first gun I laid hands on was my Smith & Wesson. If I’da grabbed my Beretta, I’d have shot him fifteen times.” ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/87 "2012-09-03T23:32:02Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > For the VAST majority of people, even accomplished cooks, where does County Line rate for BBQ compared to what they can make with the likely level of experience and equipment they have access to? With a Weber Smokey Mountain, it would take a halfway decent cook 3 or 4 tries to get the brisket right (maybe a few more), but pulled pork would likely be far better almost immediately. If that home cook had access to a Big Green Egg or a larger smoker, he or she would be shooing strsngers off the front porch. It’s really not that difficult. ---
**Author:** ![kwimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@kwimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kwimby)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/88 "2012-09-04T00:41:50Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > If that home cook had access to a Big Green Egg or a larger smoker, he or she would be shooing strsngers off the front porch. Nope, bad idea. You’ll be going to prison if they are not actually through the door and inside the house. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/89 "2012-09-04T00:46:12Z")
> [@kwimby](#): > > Nope, bad idea. You’ll be going to prison if they are not actually through the door and inside the house. Shooing, not shooting! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/90 "2012-09-04T18:29:39Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You just caught him robbing your house - can you shoot him in the back? Or you’ve already shot him once and he’s lying wounded on the floor - can you shoot him again to kill him? I think that all these questions should be informed by the assumption that if you (a law abiding citizen) has a gun, then so could the burglar. So as long as he is capable of turning around and firing off a round of two at me, I can shoot him in the anus if I want unless he is running with his hands in the air. If he’s lying wounded on the floor then I can shoot him unless his hands are in the air. In fact I don’t even feel a need to tell the burglar to put his hands int he air. He’s the professional, he should know this stuff better than me. Ask any cop if they feel safe chasing a suspect just because the suspect is running away. Or if they feel safe once the suspect is wounded or on the ground. > [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > No, you simply don’t know what you’re talking about. Barbecue made at home is typically superior to the restaurant variety. Educate yourself before you start talking down to other people. Sure, if you consider Applebee’s a BBQ restaurant. You want good pasta sauce, you can make it yourself or you can go to a good italian restaurant where they call it ragout. Same with most bbq joints. They don’t actually smoke it, they just slow cook it. So to bring this all back to the burglary thread. If you are smoking some brisket and the smell attracts trespassers who help themselves to a plate of your brisket, can you shoot them in the dick if they are holding a plateful of your brisket? No, you ask them to put down the plate before you shoot them in the dick so they don’t drop the brisket, which would force you to shoot them in the head in self defense. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’ll take “things that have nothing to do with the discussion because the incident occurred in Canada,” for $200, Alex. WHAT!?!?! Canada doesn’t have the castle doctrine? When did you get rid of it? Isn’t Canada a common law country? Isn’t castle doctrine really old english common law? ---
**Author:** ![kwimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@kwimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kwimby)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/91 "2012-09-04T20:00:52Z")
I been telling my kid playing Grand Theft Auto it’s not good sport to shoot people in the privates areas. She seems to enjoy doing it anyways, for some reason. We were eating some very delish BBQ short ribs I did up on the grill earlier while she was using the PS3 to shoot people in the arse and other weird places yesterday. Mmmmmm. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/92 "2012-09-04T20:15:37Z")
> [@Cinnamon Imp](#): > > What happened, was the boyfriend okay? Are they still together? And wasn’t it a cricket bat if he was English? He was fine, they were still going out at the conclusion of the thread, but I don’t speak to the poster any more (I had him on facebook, but I forgot his name so can’t help you out). I’m fairly sure it was a baseball bat, can get them from JJB sports. Seems no-one actually plays here and I’ve certainly never seen a diamond. Only time I’ve seen an English person with a baseball bat, he was keeping it in the car for “self-defence”. Far easier to swing for that purpose than a cricket bat, IMO. Personally, I’ve avoided anything with a heavy ball since breaking a neighbour’s shed window. Luckily they didn’t shoot me. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/93 "2012-09-04T20:41:21Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > WHAT!?!?! Canada doesn’t have the castle doctrine? When did you get rid of it? Isn’t Canada a common law country? Isn’t castle doctrine really old english common law? It seems that the term “castle doctrine” means different things in the US and Canada. From [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11021113&postcount=116) made by **Northern Piper** back in 2009: > [@Northern Piper](#): > > Both countries [i.e. the US and Canada] use the term “Castle doctrine”, but it seems to mean quite different things. > > In the US, as far as I can tell from posters on this Board (a very reputable legal cite, I assure you - I’ve actually cited Dopers in a couple of legal articles), the castle doctrine is related to self-defence of one’s own home: One is entitled to use force to defend one’s home, without any duty to retreat. > > In Canada, the castle doctrine means that the police (or other agents of the Crown) are required to produce a search warrant before they can enter one’s home. It’s not about self-defence at all. (And last time I looked, Canadian law requires a duty to retreat when that is a reasonable alternative to the use of force in self-defence.) ---
**Author:** ![Uber\_the\_Goober](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/58956e/32.png) [@Uber\_the\_Goober](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uber_the_Goober)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/94 "2012-09-04T21:55:53Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > \ > The second scenario was directed at Uber, who’s posted the following:If we take him at his word, he’s saying that if he had already shot and incapacitated a burglar, he would go ahead and shot the burglar again with the intent of killing him, in order to prevent the possibility that the burglar might file a lawsuit against him. And he would intentionally conceal what he had done. HAH! That’s a good one. What is this? “Leaping to extrapolated conclusions” hour? Man I can’t figure if I should call you a dipshit or suggest you get some help. We’re in the pit, and I’m throwing in my two cents. With a hefty pile of snark and sarcasm. If you think that I’m actually a stone-cold killer, based off of some off-handed comments on an internet message board forum dedicated to thinly veiled threats and vulgar obscenity laden tirades about the miseries of others, well then ok. Go ahead and think that. Whatever gives you the niftiest dreams I guess…My guess is that you’re hoping to really get this train off the tracks in a large way so you’ll have something to do for a while. However, my initial statement, that this guy would have had an easier time if the burglar was actually dead instead of alive to testify, that one I actually do agree with. It doesn’t mean that I myself would have killed the guy. Just making the point that a dead burglar isn’t gonna sue you for treating him poorly during his burglary. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/95 "2012-09-04T22:14:03Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > WHAT!?!?! Canada doesn’t have the castle doctrine? When did you get rid of it? Isn’t Canada a common law country? Isn’t castle doctrine really old english common law? Canadian law governing defense of property is codified at §38 of the Criminal Code of Canada. Common law only applies in Canada (as here and in England) in the absence of contrary statutory provisions. ---
**Author:** ![kwimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@kwimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kwimby)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/96 "2012-09-04T23:59:58Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Canadian law governing defense of property… This isn’t about defense of property. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/97 "2012-09-05T00:19:06Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > My point, all along, has been that you can shoot (or stab) an intruder because they are a threat to you - not because they are a burglar. But the presence of a burglar in your home can of itself quite reasonably be considered a threat. Even if he’s done nothing specifically and overtly threatening, his very presence is just that. It isn’t reasonable or practical to tell the homeowner that he must take steps to measure the level of threat before taking action. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/98 "2012-09-05T00:27:30Z")
With respect to removing someone from one’s home, the law in Canada is set out at section 41 of the Criminal Code. This trumps common law. > [@](#): > > 1. (1) Every one who is in peaceable possession of a dwelling-house or real property, and every one lawfully assisting him or acting under his authority, is justified in using force to prevent any person from trespassing on the dwelling-house or real property, or to remove a trespasser therefrom, if he uses no more force than is necessary. > > (2) A trespasser who resists an attempt by a person who is in peaceable possession of a dwelling-house or real property, or a person lawfully assisting him or acting under his authority to prevent his entry or to remove him, shall be deemed to commit an assault without justification or provocation. The crux of the test is that no more force than is necessary may be used. What is necessary is determined by the court. With respect to defending one’s self from assault, the law in Canada is set out at section 34 of the Criminal Code. This trumps common law. > [@](#): > > 1. (1) Every one who is unlawfully assaulted without having provoked the assault is justified in repelling force by force if the force he uses is not intended to cause death or grievous bodily harm and is no more than is necessary to enable him to defend himself. > > (2) Every one who is unlawfully assaulted and who causes death or grievous bodily harm in repelling the assault is justified if > > (a) he causes it under reasonable apprehension of death or grievous bodily harm from the violence with which the assault was originally made or with which the assailant pursues his purposes; and > > (b) he believes, on reasonable grounds, that he cannot otherwise preserve himself from death or grievous bodily harm. The crux of the test is that no more force than is necessary may be used. What is necessary is determined by the court. With respect to defending someone under one’s protection from assault, the law in Canada is set out at section 37 of the Criminal Code. This trumps common law. > [@](#): > > 1. (1) Every one is justified in using force to defend himself or any one under his protection from assault, if he uses no more force than is necessary to prevent the assault or the repetition of it. > > (2) Nothing in this section shall be deemed to justify the wilful infliction of any hurt or mischief that is excessive, having regard to the nature of the assault that the force used was intended to prevent. The crux of the test is that no more force than is necessary may be used. What is necessary is determined by the court. Criminal Code of Canada: [Criminal Code](http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/FullText.html) To translate this into Bubba (we have them here too): get 'er done, but don’t over do 'er. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/99 "2012-09-05T04:43:25Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > But the presence of a burglar in your home can of itself quite reasonably be considered a threat. > > Even if he’s done nothing specifically and overtly threatening, his very presence is just that. It isn’t reasonable or practical to tell the homeowner that he must take steps to measure the level of threat before taking action. Let me repeat once again - what is it now, the fifth or sixth time I’ve said this? - I am completely aware and I am completely in agreement that the presence of an intruder in your house would normally be a legitimate threat to you or your family. So can we just drop the idea that I am saying otherwise? Now here’s what I’ve actually been saying: that it is possible for an intruder to be in your house and not be a threat. Some examples: 1. You walk in your front door and the intruder is running out the back door. 2. You’ve shot the intruder and he’s lying wounded and incapacitated on the floor. 3. The intruder got into your liquor cabinet and drank himself into unconsciousness. 4. You’ve pulled your gun on the intruder and he’s surrendered. He’s lying face-down on the floor and you have him covered with your gun. In all of these scenarios, the intruder is still a burglar. But he is not a threat. This is an important distinction. Because, as I’ve been posting, you can’t shoot an intruder because he is a burglar. You can only shoot him if he is a threat. You cannot shoot a burglar if he is not threatening you. I’d like to think this clears up any possible confusion. But I actually think it’s likely I’ll have somebody posting to explain to me how a burglar in the house is obviously a threat. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/100 "2012-09-05T04:55:47Z")
> [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > HAH! That’s a good one. What is this? “Leaping to extrapolated conclusions” hour? Man I can’t figure if I should call you a dipshit or suggest you get some help. > > We’re in the pit, and I’m throwing in my two cents. With a hefty pile of snark and sarcasm. Let me point out the obvious, Uber. Those things that made you look bad in this thread? Those were quotes of your posts. If you don’t want to look bad in future threads, I’d suggest putting more thought into what you post. > [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > If you think that I’m actually a stone-cold killer, based off of some off-handed comments on an internet message board forum dedicated to thinly veiled threats and vulgar obscenity laden tirades about the miseries of others, well then ok. Go ahead and think that. Whatever gives you the niftiest dreams I guess…My guess is that you’re hoping to really get this train off the tracks in a large way so you’ll have something to do for a while. > > However, my initial statement, that this guy would have had an easier time if the burglar was actually dead instead of alive to testify, that one I actually do agree with. It doesn’t mean that I myself would have killed the guy. Just making the point that a dead burglar isn’t gonna sue you for treating him poorly during his burglary. I haven’t spent a lot of time thinking about you in the past and I don’t plan on spending much time thinking about you in the future. But you’ve got my attention at the moment. Rest assured I don’t think you’re a stone-cold killer. I have you pegged more as somebody who likes to talk like a bad-ass on the internet because it’s a safe place to pretend to be a tough guy. It’s not like anyone on a message board can challenge you to back up your talk. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350.md?page=6)