# Intruder in your home at 3 AM - if you live in Toronto, don't hurt the perp . . . **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 1, 2012, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350 "2012-09-01T11:13:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![kwimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@kwimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kwimby)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/101 "2012-09-05T12:32:24Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > The crux of the test is that no more force than is necessary may be used. What is necessary is determined by the court. I’m glad deadly force is authorized by law where I live and as long as they are inside my house I am the only one who needs to make the determination. ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/102 "2012-09-05T12:43:36Z")
Diff’rent folks, diff’rent strokes, obviously. Myself, I’m glad the law where I live values human life above material goods, and that deadly force is authorized only in extremely special circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![kwimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@kwimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kwimby)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/103 "2012-09-05T13:26:36Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > I’m glad the law where I live values human life above material goods, and that deadly force is authorized only in extremely special circumstances. Seems the people who make the laws in some jurisdictions just aren’t smart enough to recognize what constitutes a threat to human life. Encouraging criminals also seems to be popular with them. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/104 "2012-09-05T13:45:14Z")
> [@kwimby](#): > > Seems the people who make the laws in some jurisdictions just aren’t smart enough to recognize what constitutes a threat to human life. Seems some people just aren’t smart enough to recognize what constitutes a threat to human life. That’s why in Canada’s the right to protect one’s self and others is well established, while at the same time excessive force is not permitted. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/105 "2012-09-05T14:51:09Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > In all of these scenarios, the intruder is still a burglar. But he is not a threat. This is an important distinction. Right. But I took your remarks to pertain to the case mentioned in the OP, in which the burglar (who had prior convictions for robbery, assault and theft) was hiding behind a door in an occupied bedroom, and when confronted “a struggle ensued”. It’s thus relevant to ask how in this case it should/could have been determined that this burglar was not a threat. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/106 "2012-09-05T15:08:51Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Right. > > But I took your remarks to pertain to the case mentioned in the OP, in which the burglar (who had prior convictions for robbery, assault and theft) was hiding behind a door in an occupied bedroom, and when confronted “a struggle ensued”. It’s thus relevant to ask how in this case it should/could have been determined that this burglar was not a threat. Reading the linked article, it sure sounds to me like Johnson was a clear threat. But I realize newspaper articles don’t always give the full facts. So the point I’ve been trying to make is that it is _possible_ that Mahilal wasn’t justified in everything he did and that he may have been legitimately arrested. ---
**Author:** ![Uber\_the\_Goober](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/58956e/32.png) [@Uber\_the\_Goober](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uber_the_Goober)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/107 "2012-09-05T15:41:01Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Let me point out the obvious, Uber. Those things that made you look bad in this thread? Those were quotes of your posts. If you don’t want to look bad in future threads, I’d suggest putting more thought into what you post. > I haven’t spent a lot of time thinking about you in the past and I don’t plan on spending much time thinking about you in the future. But you’ve got my attention at the moment. > > Rest assured I don’t think you’re a stone-cold killer. I have you pegged more as somebody who likes to talk like a bad-ass on the internet because it’s a safe place to pretend to be a tough guy. It’s not like anyone on a message board can challenge you to back up your talk. So it’s settled then, you’re a dipshit. I don’t think those things made me look bad to anyone but you. Because, as I previously mentioned, this board is dedicated to vulgarity and obscenity directed at people/things that you feel in the moment are worthy of commentary or acts you would not otherwise in real life take part in. I’m not \*pretending \*to be a tough guy. I’m not pretending to be anything. I’m in fact being someone who makes light of a terrible situation, and I’m proud of that. If you don’t like it, there is an “ignore” feature. That’s what makes the internet great - the option to turn off someone else’s stupid. If we met in real life, my commentary would not change I assure you. I’m known to my friends as “One Step Too Far [Uber]”. If we were to meet in real life, I wouldn’t be aggresive or douchey (the attitudes it seems you’re ascribing to me) - because that’s not cool. But if you flung your over-righteous poo at me in real life, you can bet we’d have a colorful conversation. You might get your feelings hurt, but I’m inclined to think you’d “take the high road” and apply a generous dose of smug ambivalence and point out how crude and ignorant I am. As you are now doing. Have fun with that. Seems boring to me, but whatever floats your dinghy. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/108 "2012-09-05T17:18:24Z")
> [@kwimby](#): > > Seems the people who make the laws in some jurisdictions just aren’t smart enough to recognize what constitutes a threat to human life. > > Encouraging criminals also seems to be popular with them. ?Yeah, which is why Canada has such a high rate of violent crime, right? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/109 "2012-09-05T18:20:42Z")
Uber, the world isn’t trying to make you look bad. We’re just standing by and watching you make yourself look bad. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/110 "2012-09-05T19:27:58Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > ?Yeah, which is why Canada has such a high rate of violent crime, right? Statistics Canada: “[Crime Comparisons between Canada and the United States](http://web4.uwindsor.ca/users/m/mfc/41-240.nsf/0/10ff8b04ff3a317885256d88005720f6/$FILE/ATT8BNDV/0110185-002-XIE.pdf).” (pdf) ---
**Author:** ![ducati](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/cc9497/32.png) [@ducati](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ducati)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/111 "2012-09-05T19:48:45Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > ‘(I) was just trying to get out of the place’. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > The last thing he’ll ever do. Well \*\*\*I \*\*\* saw what you did there, even if no one else did.😉 ---
**Author:** ![Uber\_the\_Goober](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/58956e/32.png) [@Uber\_the\_Goober](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uber_the_Goober)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/112 "2012-09-05T20:27:10Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Uber, the world isn’t trying to make you look bad. We’re just standing by and watching you make yourself look bad. You do realize that there is no “we” for you here right? You’re up to now completely alone in all this. Perhaps you have silent accomplices feeding you the lines you perceive to be so witty? This is all but a hijack in and of itself…so I’ll have to grant you that success…you have managed to yank this train off the rails. This’ll have to be my last reply to you here, since we’re about a flea’s nipple width from new pit thread territory. Exactly how you are interpolating my feelings of paranoia about the world’s goal to make me look bad I cannot fathom…and as I said previously, I’m fine with everything I said since it was mostly tongue in cheek. Do you know how that concept works? Tongue in cheek humor? Dependent on a heavy dose of hyperbole and awkward insinuation. May I recommend a brief study of _Monty Python’s Flying Circus_? Too dry for you? OK…try _The Kids in the Hall_. Too gay for you? OK…try _In Living Color_. Too black for you? OK…try _The Red Green Show_. Too out-doorsy for you? Well I can’t help you beyond that. But I’m sure you’ll get the hang of it one day. Until then, cheerio mate. Lighten the fuck up and see a therapist. You’re taking this shit way too seriously. Thanks for giving me a punching bag for a while though; it’s been…energizing. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/113 "2012-09-06T02:43:14Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > 1. You walk in your front door and the intruder is running out the back door. Of course not. By the time I drew, he’d have turned the corner. > [@](#): > > 1. You’ve shot the intruder and he’s lying wounded and incapacitated on the floor. > 2. The intruder got into your liquor cabinet and drank himself into unconsciousness. > 3. You’ve pulled your gun on the intruder and he’s surrendered. He’s lying face-down on the floor and you have him covered with your gun. In all of these scenarios, the intruder is still a burglar. But he is not a threat. This is an important distinction. Because, as I’ve been posting, you can’t shoot an intruder because he is a burglar. You can only shoot him if he is a threat. You cannot shoot a burglar if he is not threatening you. [/quote] How do I put this? All you did with thisis expose the terribly dark fact… that we were assuming a _not-obviously-helpless_ intruder. So yes, your brilliant detective work has uncovered something any five-year old could have seen. Congratulations, Sherlock. I honestly didn’t think such a ridiculous side issue was even worth noting. In the future, I will try to be pedantically obnoxious to cover all possible scenarios some damn idiot with an axe to grind might come u with, even if it’s obviously not part of the specfic discussion. Oh wait, I won’t, because it’s a waste of time. > [@](#): > > I’d like to think this clears up any possible confusion. But I actually think it’s likely I’ll have somebody posting to explain to me how a burglar in the house is obviously a threat. Because you (a) don’t know his motives, (b) don’t know what he’s capable of or prepared for psychologically, and (c) don’t know how, if at all, he may be armed. What you do know is that he was willing to break into your home, probably knowing people were inside, which means he’s probably willing to consider violent acts and has no respect for you. _Certain_ people have tried to pretend that laws protecting the burglar is about not valuing “stuff” over lives. Now whether valuing legitimate and legally-acquired property over the life of a thief might indeed be a reasonable rule is irrelevant, because my purpose is the protect the law-abiding citizen in his, or her, own home, not specifically stuff. _I don’t really give a god-damn what happens the burglar at that specific moment_. His life, whatever abstract value is may have to God, is less valuable than ensuring the safety and well-being of the homeowner in my eyes. I further do NOT expect the homeowner to use “measured responses” or “coolly evaluate the situation” or “employ reasonable force”. They’ve been faced with an unknown, potentially dangerous intruder in their private space, and if they panic and kill the sumbitch, well, thems the breaks. Private citizens do not have a duty to practice for combat situations or gain experience in instantly evaluating criminal situations. They do have a reasonable expectation for safety against criminals. As long as they don’t injure other, innocent people in the process, I do not propose to deeply question their actions. The moral content of their character is likewise between them and God, and not something the law can adequately gauge except in the scenarios you outlined above, which were _not_ the situation I was discussing, at any rate. This is why your response is so grossly intellectually inadequate. You outline bright-line situations where all facts are clear, and ignore the murky unknowns which characterize the problem under discussion. The first duty of government is to provide as best as practical for the security of citizens against crime, through the employment of law and enforcement. Government which does not do this, or makes is difficult or impossible for citizens to provide for themselves, has failed at the most fundamental purpose of law. And as the law cannot be everywhere at once, it must recognize that people must, at times, ensure their own safety. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/114 "2012-09-06T03:00:23Z")
Smiling Bandit for TFW. Bravo on spelling it out. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/115 "2012-09-06T04:16:16Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > How do I put this? All you did with thisis expose the terribly dark fact… that we were assuming a _not-obviously-helpless_ intruder. So yes, your brilliant detective work has uncovered something any five-year old could have seen. Congratulations, Sherlock. I honestly didn’t think such a ridiculous side issue was even worth noting. In the future, I will try to be pedantically obnoxious to cover all possible scenarios some damn idiot with an axe to grind might come u with, even if it’s obviously not part of the specfic discussion. > > Oh wait, I won’t, because it’s a waste of time. But you’re forgetting a key element. This isn’t just a thread about the general topic of a generic homeowner shooting a generic intruder. The OP was about Moses Mahilal stabbing Kino Johnson and whether there was a legitimate reason to arrest Mahilal. What I’ve been pointing out is what you’re now admitting is true - that sometimes a homeowner doesn’t have the justification to stab or shoot an intruder. So maybe the Toronto police had a good reason to arrest Mahilal. You’re correct that all I’ve done is say something that’s obviously true. But it took a lot of effort to reach the point where people are agreeing that what I said is obviously true. ---
**Author:** ![Vihaga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Vihaga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vihaga)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/116 "2012-09-06T12:13:49Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Let me throw out a realistic scenario because I think maybe both sides are imagining that the other position is more absolute than it is. > > There’s some noise in your kitchen. You pick up the nearest potential weapon; a hammer, and quietly move towards the kitchen and switch on the light. There’s an intruder in your kitchen! You swing the hammer a number of times in a panicked flurry, and get three good hits on him. He’s now down on the ground saying “Stop! Please!” and so on. > > Now, no-one is saying that it’s now Situation Safe – go ahead and turn your back on him. Nor are we saying you’re at fault for doing what you’ve done so far. > But now, absolutely, you have a choice. I firmly believe you could collect your thoughts enough to decide whether to be in a position to hit him again while calling the cops, or deciding to smash his face in while he’s down. The latter would be the wrong choice IMO. > > But only a slight change to the scenario would make extreme force completely understandable e.g. you _don’t_ turn on your kitchen light and end up face to face with the perp in the darkness. It’s more understandable here because it’s an even more panicked situation and one in which there is no natural point to stop (you need to stop what you’re doing to go turn on the light to see whether it’s safe to stop what you were doing). See, I wouldn’t agree that hitting him again is necessarily the wrong choice. I’m a 5’2" woman. If a male criminal can get up, I’m probably done for if my weapon is anything but a gun. In your scenario, hitting him until he is not able to get up is my only way of ensuring my safety. The more vulnerable the homeowner is, the greater force they need to use to ensure their safety, because they can’t be sure of overpowering an adult male that isn’t completely incapacitated. I’m not comfortable telling anyone that they be sure of overcoming an intruder they’ve hit a couple times just because the guy says “stop.” ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/117 "2012-09-06T12:24:46Z")
As explained to me on different occassions by a couple of police officers I know, when there is an intruder in your house the proper steps are: 1. Shoot to kill in the front of their body. 2. If intruder does not have a weapon, go in your kitchen, get a knife and put it in their hand. 3. Call 911 4. Repeat to police, “I was afraid for my life.” ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/118 "2012-09-06T12:59:28Z")
> [@Vihaga](#): > > See, I wouldn’t agree that hitting him again is necessarily the wrong choice. I’m a 5’2" woman. If a male criminal can get up, I’m probably done for if my weapon is anything but a gun. In your scenario, hitting him until he is not able to get up is my only way of ensuring my safety. The more vulnerable the homeowner is, the greater force they need to use to ensure their safety, because they can’t be sure of overpowering an adult male that isn’t completely incapacitated. I’m not comfortable telling anyone that they be sure of overcoming an intruder they’ve hit a couple times just because the guy says “stop.” I’m a pretty big guy but let’s say for argument’s sake the intruder looks like he could easily overpower me (and I’m also not immune to bullets). With the hammer raised I’d tell him to stay down and put his hands behind his back. I couldn’t just smash his face in and potentially make him a mental invalid, or even kill him, at the point where he has not shown any aggression to me yet. So I guess I put myself at more risk but to me it’s The Right Thing To Do[sup]TM[/sup]. And yes I do think that excessive force should be a prosecutable offence, although the circumstances should of course affect sentencing. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/119 "2012-09-06T13:02:48Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > As explained to me on different occasions by a couple of police officers I know, when there is an intruder in your house the proper steps are: > > 1. Shoot to kill in the front of their body. > 2. If intruder does not have a weapon, go in your kitchen, get a knife and put it in their hand. > 3. Call 911 > 4. Repeat to police, “I was afraid for my life.” Where you wrote “police officers,” i think you meant “criminals.” ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/120 "2012-09-06T15:49:46Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > . . . his claim that he was just trying to escape. . . . - Which he obviously was allowed to do. If I’d of come home in such circumstances and thought the guy was a threat to my children, I’d of gone batshit crazy violent. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350.md?page=7)