# Intruder in your home at 3 AM - if you live in Toronto, don't hurt the perp . . . **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 1, 2012, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350 "2012-09-01T11:13:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/121 "2012-09-06T16:13:42Z")
_shrug_ There were no children in the house. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/122 "2012-09-06T16:37:25Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Where you wrote “police officers,” i think you meant “criminals.” No. I meant police officers. The point they were making is unless the intruder is running away (hence shooting the front of the body), you have to assume they will do you harm. Even if you don’t see a weapon, don’t assume they don’t have one. And your comment gets to the heart of the conflict in this thread. Someone I don’t know is in my house without permission. They are facing me and making no attempt to escape. I have no clue what their intentions are or if there are any weapons. 1. Why shouldn’t I be allowed to shoot the intruder? 2. If I do shoot him, why would I not shoot to kill? The other 3 steps were simply the affirmation (I believe) of the police officers that under those circumstances, shooting and killing the intruder is appropriate and the rest was just so that the homeowner is safe from arrest/prosecution for taking the necessary action of self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/123 "2012-09-06T16:39:59Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I’m a pretty big guy but let’s say for argument’s sake the intruder looks like he could easily overpower me (and I’m also not immune to bullets). With the hammer raised I’d tell him to stay down and put his hands behind his back. > > I couldn’t just smash his face in and potentially make him a mental invalid, or even kill him, at the point where he has not shown any aggression to me yet. So I guess I put myself at more risk but to me it’s The Right Thing To Do[sup]TM[/sup]. > > And yes I do think that excessive force should be a prosecutable offence, although the circumstances should of course affect sentencing. An intruder isn’t just going to stand there and let you hit him, he is either going to retreat away from you or rush you. You’re full of shit if you think you would be that cool and collected running into an intruder at night in the dark in your own house. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/124 "2012-09-06T16:42:57Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > No. I meant police officers. > The point they were making is unless the intruder is running away (hence shooting the front of the body), you have to assume they will do you harm. Even if you don’t see a weapon, don’t assume they don’t have one. > > And your comment gets to the heart of the conflict in this thread. Someone I don’t know is in my house without permission. They are facing me and making no attempt to escape. I have no clue what their intentions are or if there are any weapons. > > 1. Why shouldn’t I be allowed to shoot the intruder? > 2. If I do shoot him, why would I not shoot to kill? > > The other 3 steps were simply the affirmation (I believe) of the police officers that under those circumstances, shooting and killing the intruder is appropriate and the rest was just so that the homeowner is safe from arrest/prosecution for taking the necessary action of self-defense. I’ve heard that and worse from cops in Texas, dead criminals can’t testify to anything. Anyone remember Joe Horn? > **[Joe Horn shooting controversy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Horn_shooting_controversy)** > > The Joe Horn shooting controversy occurred on November 14, 2007, in Pasadena, Texas, United States, when local resident Joe Horn shot and killed two burglars outside his neighbor's home. Recordings of Horn's exchange with emergency dispatch indicated that he was asked 14 times not to interfere with the burglary, because police would soon be on scene. The shootings resulted in debates regarding self-defense, castle doctrine laws, and Texas laws relating to use of deadly force to prevent or sto On... ---
**Author:** ![kwimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@kwimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kwimby)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/125 "2012-09-06T16:50:00Z")
Forming opinions about this type of violent confrontation based on preconceived notions of pacifism, criminal intent and other warm fuzzy bullshit is asinine. Anyone who thinks they would enter their home under similar circumstances thinking with the tiniest sliver of well-being of any kind towards the intruder is an intellectually dishonest dickhead. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/126 "2012-09-06T16:57:33Z")
So what? Anyone who says he wouldn’t want to murder a guy who raped his daughter is also probably lying. That doesn’t mean it’s legal. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/127 "2012-09-06T17:24:06Z")
These cases are sort of interesting to me, because I’m _not_ a homeowner - I rent a small studio apartment. Don’t get me wrong, it’s a nice place - but it’s one room, with one entrance/exit, and that entrance opens into my (fairly narrow) front hallway. All of which means that, if I came home and found an intruder in my apartment, the _only_ way for that guy to leave would be for him to come very, very close to me. Easily close enough to injure or kill me. And since my door swings shut pretty fast behind me, I’d probably have to turn my back towards the intruder to open the door and flee into the apartment corridor. My conclusion: If I came home and found an intruder, I’d try to yell “Get down on the floor!” - but if I didn’t have time, or didn’t think this prudent, I’d just go to the next step: Hurting the intruder as badly as I could, as quickly as I could. Even if he says he’s trying to leave, there just isn’t any way for him to do that without coming close enough to harm me. And if we’re going to be getting close enough to exchange blows, it’ll damned well be on _my_ initiative, and I’ll be striking first. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/128 "2012-09-06T18:42:22Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > So what? Anyone who says he wouldn’t want to murder a guy who raped his daughter is also probably lying. That doesn’t mean it’s legal. If I was on the jury, depending on the circumstances I would not convict. Even if I felt the circumstances demanded a guilty, I would keep in mind the circumstances under which the crime occured. You don’t get to commit a crime that puts a person into a position of extreme emotional duress and expect the same protection under the law as an innocent. In such cases the question is whether the accused is a threat to society at large, or was under extreme stress and made a human mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/129 "2012-09-06T20:10:38Z")
> [@grude](#): > > An intruder isn’t just going to stand there and let you hit him, he is either going to retreat away from you or rush you. You’re full of shit if you think you would be that cool and collected running into an intruder at night in the dark in your own house. Did you read the scenario? I’ve already hit him 3 times with a hammer and he’s down on the ground begging me to stop. Yes, I can collect my thoughts at this point. I’m not some wild animal and you’re “full of shit” if you can’t understand that. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/130 "2012-09-06T20:31:10Z")
> [@kwimby](#): > > Anyone who thinks they would enter their home under similar circumstances thinking with the tiniest sliver of well-being of any kind towards the intruder is an intellectually dishonest dickhead. [Tiniest sliver](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshihiro_Hattori)? > [@smiling bandit](#): > > Private citizens do not have a duty to practice for combat situations or gain experience in instantly evaluating criminal situations. If it could be demonstrated that such training significantly reduced the incidents of wrongful deaths (I leave it up to you to interpret the thresholds of reduction and defining wrongful death), would making such training a prerequisite of owning a gun be equitable? ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/131 "2012-09-06T21:12:01Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > [Tiniest sliver](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshihiro_Hattori)? This is sad beyond words. What a waste. What a tragedy. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/132 "2012-09-06T21:38:50Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > This is sad beyond words. What a waste. What a tragedy. > [@](#): > > Two months into his stay in the United States, he received an invitation, along with Webb Haymaker, his homestay brother, to a Halloween party organized for Japanese exchange students on October 17, 1992. Hattori went dressed in a tuxedo in imitation of John Travolta from Saturday Night Fever. Upon their arrival in the quiet working-class neighborhood where the party was held, the boys mistook the Peairses’ residence for their intended destination due to the similarity of the address and the Halloween decorations on the outside of the house, and proceeded to step out of their car and walk to the front door. (Fujio 2004; Harper n.d.) > > Hattori and Haymaker rang the front doorbell but, seemingly receiving no response, began to walk back to their car. Meanwhile, inside the house, their arrival had not gone unnoticed. Bonnie Peairs had peered out the side door and saw them. Mrs. Peairs, startled, retreated inside, locked the door, and said to her husband, “Rodney, get your gun.” Hattori and Haymaker were walking to their car when the carport door was opened again, this time by Mr. Peairs. He was armed with a loaded and cocked .44 magnum revolver. He pointed it at Hattori, and yelled “Freeze.” Simultaneously, Hattori, likely thinking he said “please,” stepped back towards the house, saying “We’re here for the party.” Haymaker, seeing the weapon, shouted after Hattori, but Peairs fired his weapon at point blank range at Hattori, hitting him in the chest, and then ran back inside. (Kernodle 2002; Fujio 2004; Harper n.d.) Haymaker rushed to Hattori, badly wounded and lying where he fell, on his back. Haymaker ran to the home next door to the Peairses’ house for help. Neither Mr. Peairs nor his wife came out of their house until the police arrived, about 40 minutes after the shooting. Mrs. Peairs shouted to a neighbor to “go away” when the neighbor called for help. One of the Peairses’ children later told police that her mother asked, “Why did you shoot him?” How many burglers are confused foreigners in tuxedos? And park their car in the driveway and ring the doorbell? How did this family avoid killing a bunch of people over the years? ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/133 "2012-09-06T22:08:04Z")
> [@grude](#): > > How many burglers are confused foreigners in tuxedos? And park their car in the driveway and ring the doorbell? How did this family avoid killing a bunch of people over the years? [Folie à deux](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folie_%C3%A0_deux)? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/134 "2012-09-06T22:18:54Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > [Tiniest sliver](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshihiro_Hattori)? As a lifelong supporter of self-defense, victim’s rights, and firearms use, I’ve always been absolutely disgusted with that situation and that verdict. I have never once read any even slightly compelling defense of the trigger-happy couple, and why the husband is not still in prison is beyond belief. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/135 "2012-09-07T00:13:42Z")
I don’t think the Hattori example is really on point because he wasn’t even in the house. ---
**Author:** ![kwimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@kwimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kwimby)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/136 "2012-09-07T01:05:22Z")
> [@grude](#): > > How did this family avoid killing a bunch of people over the years? Stupid people can get lucky, too! My guess would be they were the weird scary neighbors that nobodody talked to and steered clear of at all times. But because accidentally stupid shootings like that happen every once in a blue moon we should use it as justification to suppress people’s right to safety and self defense in their own homes? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/137 "2012-09-07T01:56:54Z")
> [@kwimby](#): > > But because accidentally stupid shootings like that happen every once in a blue moon we should use it as justification to suppress people’s right to safety and self defense in their own homes? Fortunately, as you can see from the Canadian law cited up-thread, we can do whatever is reasonable in the circumstances to protect ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![kwimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@kwimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kwimby)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/138 "2012-09-07T02:41:11Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Fortunately, as you can see from the Canadian law cited up-thread, we can do whatever is reasonable in the circumstances to protect ourselves. Too bad the DA, Judge and the perp’s personal injury attorney aren’t going to be there when the shit goes down. Good luck with that. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/139 "2012-09-07T02:47:38Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Seems some people just aren’t smart enough to recognize what constitutes a threat to human life. > > That’s why in Canada’s the right to protect one’s self and others is well established, while at the same time excessive force is not permitted. Do the people deciding what is and isn’t “excessive force” have their security provided for them? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350/140 "2012-09-07T11:06:29Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > Do the people deciding what is and isn’t “excessive force” have their security provided for them? No. Judges do not have security provided for them at home. At work, there are usually one or two security officers for the building, and prisoners are escorted by further officers at all times they are out of their cells. Note also that most people who end up as judges here spend about half a century before they become judges. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intruder-in-your-home-at-3-am-if-you-live-in-toronto-dont-hurt-the-perp/633350.md?page=8)