# Invade Puerto Rico! NOW!!! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 12, 2017, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/invade-puerto-rico-now/798660 "2017-10-12T17:17:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2017, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/invade-puerto-rico-now/798660/101 "2017-10-24T23:28:50Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Some of you guys might not know this, but Puerto Rico is _AN ISLAND_. An island in _THE OCEAN_. _A VERY BIG OCEAN!!_ So’s Long Island, where Trump was _(allegedly)_ born. So’s Scotland, his motherland, where I suppose he still holds citizenship. (They don’t want him either). ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2017, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/invade-puerto-rico-now/798660/102 "2017-10-24T23:41:11Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I don’t think it is “on them”. It’s not like Carter forgot to change airfilters, or Obama shot bin Ladin. They were both told by the military that it would be successful, and they gave the orders. In the case of the bin Laden operation, Obama deserves plenty of credit. Shrubby had peeled resources away from the hunt for bin Laden as early as the spring of 2002 (in order to scout out the invasion of Iraq, of course) and called it off entirely by 2006. Obama deserves credit for instructing the military to revive that hunt, without which there would have been no opportunity to give the order to go ahead with the mission to kill bin Laden when the opportunity arose. Besides, any leader worth his salt isn’t going to just unthinkingly accept the recommendations of the people who report to him. S/he will want to have a good idea of what the plan is, enough to ask good questions about what the risks are, where it could break down, and what the plan is when something goes wrong. Obama, being the conscientious sort he is, surely did all this in spades when Osama was located and the military presented their plan. Same thing with Carter, only a bit different. Our military in 1980 was still pulling itself back together in the wake of the Vietnam days. The notion that it could pull off an Entebbe-style rescue was a long shot, and you can’t tell me that the military people didn’t tell Carter this was a risky mission with the odds being against a successful rescue of the hostages. And per Rumsfeld, you go to war with the army you’ve got, not the army you’d like to have. Carter had the military of 1980, with all that that meant, and he chose to go ahead with this very risky mission anyway. It was his gamble, and the loss has to be on his head. Again, it was more than just “here’s what the military men are telling me, so that’s what I’ll do” without any thought or agency. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2017, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/invade-puerto-rico-now/798660/103 "2017-10-25T01:48:51Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > In the case of the bin Laden operation, Obama deserves plenty of credit. Shrubby had peeled resources away from the hunt for bin Laden as early as the spring of 2002 (in order to scout out the invasion of Iraq, of course) and called it off entirely by 2006. Obama deserves credit for instructing the military to revive that hunt, without which there would have been no opportunity to give the order to go ahead with the mission to kill bin Laden when the opportunity arose. > > Besides, any leader worth his salt isn’t going to just unthinkingly accept the recommendations of the people who report to him. S/he will want to have a good idea of what the plan is, enough to ask good questions about what the risks are, where it could break down, and what the plan is when something goes wrong. Obama, being the conscientious sort he is, surely did all this in spades when Osama was located and the military presented their plan. > > Same thing with Carter, only a bit different. Our military in 1980 was still pulling itself back together in the wake of the Vietnam days. The notion that it could pull off an Entebbe-style rescue was a long shot, and you can’t tell me that the military people didn’t tell Carter this was a risky mission with the odds being against a successful rescue of the hostages. > > And per Rumsfeld, you go to war with the army you’ve got, not the army you’d like to have. Carter had the military of 1980, with all that that meant, and he chose to go ahead with this very risky mission anyway. It was his gamble, and the loss has to be on his head. Again, it was more than just “here’s what the military men are telling me, so that’s what I’ll do” without any thought or agency. Horse puckey. In both cases, the military said they could do it. Carter was a nuclear engineer in a submarine, for Christ’s sake. I am sure that Obama ran obstacle course with the seals, when they couldn’t hit a target, he showed them how, and instructed the pilot how to land a stealth helicopter. Horse puckey. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2017, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/invade-puerto-rico-now/798660/104 "2017-10-25T01:52:37Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > So’s Long Island, where Trump was _(allegedly)_ born. Trump wasn’t born, he paid someone to move a wet rock so that he could pretend to crawl out from under it. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2017, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/invade-puerto-rico-now/798660/105 "2017-10-25T11:17:54Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Horse puckey. > In both cases, the military said they could do it. > Carter was a nuclear engineer in a submarine, for Christ’s sake. > I am sure that Obama ran obstacle course with the seals, when they couldn’t hit a target, he showed them how, and instructed the pilot how to land a stealth helicopter. > Horse puckey. And I’m certain that in both cases they had the mission explained to them in some detail. They understood at some level the risks involved, and gave the go ahead. I don’t know if Carter actually monitored the Iran mission, but we know that Obama was watching the bin Laden one. Both took responsibility, one for success, one for failure. Compare and contrast to the Yemen raid: > [@Trump](#): > > This was something they wanted to do. They came to me, they explained what they wanted to do, the generals, who are very respected, the most respected that we’ve had in many decades, I believe. And they lost Ryan. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2017, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/invade-puerto-rico-now/798660/106 "2017-10-25T12:31:29Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > Both took responsibility, one for success, one for failure. Surely, a President is ultimately responsible, but it is not as though they could actually do something to make a plan succeed or fail. I’m responsible if my dog poops in the neighbor’s garden, but I didn’t do the pooping. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2017, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/invade-puerto-rico-now/798660/107 "2017-10-25T14:16:53Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Surely, a President is ultimately responsible, but it is not as though they could actually do something to make a plan succeed or fail. > > I’m responsible if my dog poops in the neighbor’s garden, but I didn’t do the pooping. No, but they decide if the plan will be executed - so they can certainly prevent failure by not allowing it to proceed (which IIRC was the counsel given to Obama). Just like if you don’t let your dog into the neighbor’s yard, it can’t poop there. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2017, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/invade-puerto-rico-now/798660/108 "2017-10-25T14:19:26Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Same thing with Carter, only a bit different. Our military in 1980 was still pulling itself back together in the wake of the Vietnam days. The notion that it could pull off an Entebbe-style rescue was a long shot, and you can’t tell me that the military people didn’t tell Carter this was a risky mission with the odds being against a successful rescue of the hostages. The Iran rescue mission really only failed because of fairly unlikely equipment malfunctions. But in any event, whether or not the POTUS deserves blame/credit for successful military operations, the POTUS _gets_ the blame. Or the credit. And that makes sense. Lincoln wasn’t personally directing pincer movements at the Battle of Manassas, but he’s rightly lauded for saving the Union. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2017, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/invade-puerto-rico-now/798660/109 "2017-10-25T14:32:06Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The Iran rescue mission really only failed because of fairly unlikely equipment malfunctions. There were several more steps to go, with a lot of iffiness at each step. I remember the plan being diagrammed out in the newspapers afterwards, and thinking about just how many things still would have had to go _right_ for it to work, even if nothing had gone wrong at Desert One. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/invade-puerto-rico-now/798660.md?page=5)