# "Invasive species", or "survival of the fittest"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 25, 2012, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/invasive-species-or-survival-of-the-fittest/619963 "2012-04-25T22:44:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/invasive-species-or-survival-of-the-fittest/619963/201 "2014-06-04T22:51:23Z")
> [@](#): > > Once upon a time there was a Chinese farmer whose horse ran away. All the neighbors came around to commemorate that evening, “So sorry that your horse has run away, that’s too bad.” and he said, “Maybe.” > > The next day the horse came back, bringing seven wild horses with it. Everyone came around in the evening and said, “Oh isn’t that lucky, what a great turn of events, you’ve now got eight horses.” and he said, “Maybe.” > > The next day his son tried to break one of the horses and ride it, but was thrown and ended up breaking his leg. They all said, “Oh dear that’s too bad.” and he said, “Maybe.” > > The following day the conscription officers came around to recruit, or to force people into the army but they rejected his son because he had a broken leg. All the people came around and said, “That’s great.” and he said, “Maybe.” > > - Alan Watts 😛 > [@Yllaria](#): > > The point, when I started, is that if you’re against protecting endangered species, that’s an additional thing that should be explicitly added. We not only spend tax dollars on it, we require developers and private citizens to spend their money on it. It’s a very political thing. People have loud opinions on what should be done and how much should be spent. On that topic, I will salute and say ‘rant on’. You are part of the democratic process in action. I’m for government regulation that requires individuals and corporations to stop bulldozing wild spaces, and to stop pumping toxins into the air and water. I’m against protecting endangered species by sending biologists into the woods with shotguns, or traps, or poisons, to kill one species as part of an effort to save a more endangered one. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/invasive-species-or-survival-of-the-fittest/619963/202 "2014-06-04T22:56:32Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I’m pretty sure Gould was referring to the Horse _family_ (equides) not the horse species (_Equus ferus_) . . . [A quick Google pops up with this…](http://horsetalk.co.nz/2012/11/29/why-did-horses-die-out-in-north-america/#axzz33iJyili1) It seems to be talking about horses, not equines in general. > [@](#): > > So Gould would be wrong on that one. . . . C’est impossible! Gould never makes mistakes! The fault must most certainly be mine! ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/invasive-species-or-survival-of-the-fittest/619963/203 "2014-06-05T12:12:03Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > [A quick Google pops up with this…](http://horsetalk.co.nz/2012/11/29/why-did-horses-die-out-in-north-america/#axzz33iJyili1) It seems to be talking about horses, not equines in general. When it says “Horses originated in North America 35-56 million years ago. These terrier-sized mammals were adapted to forest life. Over millions of years they increased in size and diversified.” If they’re starting of by calling _Eohippus_ a horse, it’s pretty clear they mean _Equidae_, not _Equus ferus_. Note they repeat the very same mistake Gould highlighted, calling Eohippus ["terrier-sized](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eohippus)" Note it then goes on to say “Still others spread across Asia, the Middle East and Europe, evolving into the true horse, Equus caballus.” which implies an ex-Western Hemisphere origin for the horse (_E. caballus_ being properly _E. ferus caballus_), which is news to me, although that could be read as them evolving spread across there _and_ N. America. Side note: not sure I trust a cite that doesn’t italicize its nomenclatures to get scientific facts right, but I’m a pedant like that. > [@](#): > > C’est impossible! Gould never makes mistakes! The fault must most certainly be mine! Tell that to [Simon Conway-Morris](http://www.americanscientist.org/bookshelf/pub/cambrian-conflict-crucible-an-assault-on-goulds-burgess-shale-interpretation) !😃 ETA: I don’t necessarily agree with Conway-Morris overall, but I do believe he is right that most Burgess taxa, like _Wiwaxia_, fit into existing phyla, rather than not. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/invasive-species-or-survival-of-the-fittest/619963/204 "2014-06-06T00:09:28Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > 😛 > > I’m for government regulation that requires individuals and corporations to stop bulldozing wild spaces, and to stop pumping toxins into the air and water. I’m against protecting endangered species by sending biologists into the woods with shotguns, or traps, or poisons, to kill one species as part of an effort to save a more endangered one. Ah, but, sadly, one of the ways we’ve chosen to protect wild spaces is to create lists of endangered species and then say “you can’t do that there - it’s a habitat for X.” The barred owls aren’t endangered and therefore their habitat is, relatively speaking, up for grabs. If the spotted owls are there, the habitat is protected. Not completely protected, but relatively protected. If there’s a buffer zone around the spotted owl area, then some of the barred owls get protected, too. Endangered species are also used as canaries in the coal mine, rhetorically, in arguments about how much wild space should be protected. Group A says, we only need just a little tiny bit more of the wild space and this will make jobs and build white picket fences and clear these nasty dead trees so that the rainbows come. Group B might be able to argue no and make it stick. It’s easier to stop, though, if the permitting agency can say, sorry, the spotted owls are declining. See these numbers? See this graph? Are you going to argue with the graph? If you want to build here, find a way to get those numbers up. But we are well into normal political back and forth. Everybody thinks it’s crappy to send biologists to shoot barred owls. And there are some people who are fixated on the endangered species just because it’s sad to see them go, I’ll grant you. The folks who made this particular decision, however, are managing a habitat within a set of rules chosen to protect habitat by, among other things, using endangered species as shields against habitat destruction. You’re free to argue that they made the wrong decision. Maybe they did. I’d need more information before I’d agree, but that’s me. (Even if we taught them to use little bitty chain saws, it would only work if they were little bitty \*solar powered \*chain saws.) ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2014, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/invasive-species-or-survival-of-the-fittest/619963/205 "2014-06-09T17:59:18Z")
Bumping to add an [article about endangered yeast](http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/05/theres-a-safety-deposit-box-for-the-yeast-that-makes-your-beer/371876/). Sound flaky? Not so. These are beer and ale yeasts. So it’s part human history and part economics. (Note the reference to the Svalbard Global Seed Vault. This shows that they are serious about their yeast. (There also are other seed banks spread between many universities. I think UC Davis banks tomato seeds.)) No habitat is being protected, but someone is thinking about the yeast. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/invasive-species-or-survival-of-the-fittest/619963/206 "2014-06-11T13:38:27Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > Bumping to add an [article about endangered yeast](http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/05/theres-a-safety-deposit-box-for-the-yeast-that-makes-your-beer/371876/). Sound flaky? Not so. These are beer and ale yeasts. So it’s part human history and part economics. And part taste 🙂 Although I think that article oversells how rare real ale/top fermenting yeasts are. As a type of yeast, they’re not endangered at all. There’s a whole lot of interest in preserving original or “heirloom” varieties of entirely human-made plants, and that’s cool. I think the less beholden we are to the Monsantos of the world, the better off we’ll be. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/invasive-species-or-survival-of-the-fittest/619963/207 "2015-10-12T20:18:22Z")
[![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/JeSMPESpxdA/hqdefault.jpg "George Carlin - Saving Endangered Species is Wrong!") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeSMPESpxdA) ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/invasive-species-or-survival-of-the-fittest/619963/208 "2015-10-12T21:08:15Z")
For this you bump a year old thread ? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/invasive-species-or-survival-of-the-fittest/619963/209 "2015-10-13T01:25:35Z")
Check the date on the OP. Three and half years on the thread. One year on the latest zombification. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/invasive-species-or-survival-of-the-fittest/619963/210 "2015-10-13T02:07:11Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > For this you bump a year old thread ? Yeah, why not? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/invasive-species-or-survival-of-the-fittest/619963/211 "2015-10-13T02:32:08Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Yeah, why not? Can’t be bothered with even a one line summary of the video? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/invasive-species-or-survival-of-the-fittest/619963/212 "2015-10-13T03:09:20Z")
Okay, sorry: it’s a comedic presentation of essentially the thesis of the OP. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/invasive-species-or-survival-of-the-fittest/619963/213 "2015-10-14T10:42:12Z")
Not particularly interested, does it in any way compensate for the deficiencies of the original thesis or the poor explanations that followed? Does it, for example, address the laughable notion that marine species can’t be invasive? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/invasive-species-or-survival-of-the-fittest/619963/214 "2015-10-14T10:47:10Z")
All species are invasive, or none of them are. This is just not even a valid category of anything. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/invasive-species-or-survival-of-the-fittest/619963/215 "2015-10-14T10:59:11Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > All species are invasive, or none of them are. Bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/invasive-species-or-survival-of-the-fittest/619963/216 "2015-10-14T11:00:26Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Bullshit. I have to disagree. It’s \*utter \*bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/invasive-species-or-survival-of-the-fittest/619963/217 "2015-10-14T11:20:53Z")
So a species is invasive if human activity helps it move to an area it has not been before, right? I mean, wolves are in lots of places and presumably started in a smaller range but they are not invasive. Shouldn’t we then work hard to get horses out of the Western Hemisphere? The wild ones should be eradicated for sure. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/invasive-species-or-survival-of-the-fittest/619963/218 "2015-10-14T11:36:23Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > So a species is invasive if human activity helps it move to an area it has not been before, right? I mean, wolves are in lots of places and presumably started in a smaller range but they are not invasive. Shouldn’t we then work hard to get horses out of the Western Hemisphere? The wild ones should be eradicated for sure. Not been before? Horses _evolved_ in North America. Anatomically-modern wild horses lived here for more than a million years. We wiped them out 11,000-odd years ago, then brought some back in the past 500. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/invasive-species-or-survival-of-the-fittest/619963/219 "2015-10-14T11:37:45Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > So a species is invasive if human activity helps it move to an area it has not been before, right? Nope. Not every introduced species is an invasive species. As has been pointed out in this thread before. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/invasive-species-or-survival-of-the-fittest/619963/220 "2015-10-14T11:44:52Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > When it says “Horses originated in North America 35-56 million years ago. These terrier-sized mammals were adapted to forest life. Over millions of years they increased in size and diversified.” If they’re starting of by calling _Eohippus_ a horse, it’s pretty clear they mean _Equidae_, not _Equus ferus_. Note they repeat the very same mistake Gould highlighted, calling Eohippus ["terrier-sized](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eohippus)" > > Note it then goes on to say “Still others spread across Asia, the Middle East and Europe, evolving into the true horse, Equus caballus.” which implies an ex-Western Hemisphere origin for the horse (_E. caballus_ being properly _E. ferus caballus_), which is news to me, although that could be read as them evolving spread across there _and_ N. America. Ann Forsten and others have shown that _Equus lambus_ was not genetically distinct from _E. caballus_. Without getting too deep in the weeds, the simple statement is, modern horses evolved in North America, something less than 2 MYA. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/invasive-species-or-survival-of-the-fittest/619963.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/invasive-species-or-survival-of-the-fittest/619963.md?page=12)