# Investing Social Security (previously "Wow Bush got something right") **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 6, 2005, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/investing-social-security-previously-wow-bush-got-something-right/297967 "2005-04-06T01:48:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/investing-social-security-previously-wow-bush-got-something-right/297967/1 "2005-04-06T01:48:24Z")
> [@](#): > > PARKERSBURG, W.Va. – President Bush sought to dramatize Social Security’s solvency problems Tuesday by pointing to government IOUs – stored in a file cabinet – that are supposed to finance America’s future retirement needs. > > “A lot of people in America think there is a trust – that we take your money in payroll taxes and then we hold it for you and then when you retire, we give it back to you,” Bush said in a speech at the University of West Virginia at Parkersburg. > > “But that’s not the way it works,” Bush said. “There is no trust ‘fund’ – just IOUs that I saw firsthand,” Bush said. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27922-2005Apr5.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27922-2005Apr5.html) But he missed his chance. He should have said let’s stop using these IOU’s and just use the SS money for what it was intended instead of using the money to make the debt look smaller. I know the Bush admin is not the first to do this and probably not the last. Wouldn’t using the SS taxes for what they were intended help save SS? Why not invest them in the stock market that Bush holds in such high esteem? Fannie Mae maybe? Anything that has a return. Should this not be brought before congress as a way to save SS? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/investing-social-security-previously-wow-bush-got-something-right/297967/2 "2005-04-06T01:57:50Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27922-2005Apr5.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27922-2005Apr5.html) > But he missed his chance. He should have said let’s stop using these IOU’s and just use the SS money for what it was intended instead of using the money to make the debt look smaller. > I know the Bush admin is not the first to do this and probably not the last. > > Wouldn’t using the SS taxes for what they were intended help save SS? Why not invest them in the stock market that Bush holds in such high esteem? Fannie Mae maybe? > > Anything that has a return. > > Should this not be brought before congress as a way to save SS? Because that money is needed to pay the current recipients of this giant Ponzi scheme. That’s one of the criticisms of his ‘private accounts’ plan - the only way to take money from SS and put it anywhere is to borrow it, because there IS no money. Money received today is turned around and paid out to retirees. The scheme depends on those people who put money in today in turn getting their money from future sucke^^^retirees. The problem is that there will be a lot fewer workers supporting those retirees than there are now, hence the fiscal meltdown. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/investing-social-security-previously-wow-bush-got-something-right/297967/3 "2005-04-06T02:05:35Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Because that money is needed to pay the current recipients of this giant Ponzi scheme. That’s one of the criticisms of his ‘private accounts’ plan - the only way to take money from SS and put it anywhere is to borrow it, because there IS no money. Money received today is turned around and paid out to retirees. The scheme depends on those people who put money in today in turn getting their money from future sucke^^^retirees. The problem is that there will be a lot fewer workers supporting those retirees than there are now, hence the fiscal meltdown. Not quite. Money coming in still exceeds outgoing… [http://www.ssa.gov/history/tftable.html](http://www.ssa.gov/history/tftable.html) Learn my friend. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/investing-social-security-previously-wow-bush-got-something-right/297967/4 "2005-04-06T02:58:45Z")
You can leave off the snotty “learn my friend” stuff. I know the money coming in currently exceeds the money going out. The money going in will stop exceeding the money paid out in 2018. After that, the government has to start supplementing it. Your message said nothing about only putting aside the excess over what is paid out. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/investing-social-security-previously-wow-bush-got-something-right/297967/5 "2005-04-06T03:05:07Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > You can leave off the snotty “learn my friend” stuff. I know the money coming in currently exceeds the money going out. The money going in will stop exceeding the money paid out in 2018. After that, the government has to start supplementing it. > > Your message said nothing about only putting aside the excess over what is paid out. Let me get this straight. You think you can invest money that’s paid out? ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/investing-social-security-previously-wow-bush-got-something-right/297967/6 "2005-04-06T03:11:57Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > You can leave off the snotty “learn my friend” stuff. I know the money coming in currently exceeds the money going out. The money going in will stop exceeding the money paid out in 2018. After that, the government has to start supplementing it. > > Your message said nothing about only putting aside the excess over what is paid out. The govt doesn’t have to supplement it until 2045 or so. Between 2018 and then it just has to honor the govt bonds in the “file cabinet”, just like it has to honor the ones sold to China and Japan. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/investing-social-security-previously-wow-bush-got-something-right/297967/7 "2005-04-06T03:26:04Z")
But doesn’t honoring the bonds amount to the same thing? ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/investing-social-security-previously-wow-bush-got-something-right/297967/8 "2005-04-06T03:33:03Z")
Are you saying T-Bills aren’t backed by the US goverment? That’d be a pretty bold statement. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/investing-social-security-previously-wow-bush-got-something-right/297967/9 "2005-04-06T03:33:56Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > But doesn’t honoring the bonds amount to the same thing? Investing the overages in an outside fund…Home mortages…the stock market…or wherever outside of the Govt itself means you don’t have to rob peter to pay paul. Understand? BTW…love you location. You decide people didn’t need to know you are Canadian? ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/investing-social-security-previously-wow-bush-got-something-right/297967/10 "2005-04-06T03:34:21Z")
Reeder, use _descriptive_ titles and keep the gratuitous Bush-bashing ones in the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/investing-social-security-previously-wow-bush-got-something-right/297967/11 "2005-04-06T03:36:15Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Are you saying T-Bills aren’t backed by the US goverment? That’d be a pretty bold statement. Am I saying it? I know they are. But if you move money from one pocket to another…you eventually have to move it back. With no real gain. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/investing-social-security-previously-wow-bush-got-something-right/297967/12 "2005-04-06T03:37:31Z")
> [@Gaudere](#): > > Reeder, use _descriptive_ titles and keep the gratuitous Bush-bashing ones in the Pit. Geez…in my OP I said Bush wasn’t alone. Where am I bashing Bush? ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/investing-social-security-previously-wow-bush-got-something-right/297967/13 "2005-04-06T03:40:33Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > Am I saying it? No, I guess Sam is saying it: > [@](#): > > there IS no money Which would mean that T-Bills, which are what the SS trust fund is made up of, are not really backed by the US government. They’re worthless wastepaper. Is this what you’re asserting, Sam? ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/investing-social-security-previously-wow-bush-got-something-right/297967/14 "2005-04-06T03:41:21Z")
Your title was “wow…Bush got something right” which implies it is so rare as to be breathtaking when it does happen. And it says _nothing_ about what your debate is aside from that Bush is somehow involved. The whole point of your title seemed to be a swipe at Bush since it certainly didn’t convey any useful information that might help people decide if they want to read your OP. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/investing-social-security-previously-wow-bush-got-something-right/297967/15 "2005-04-06T03:42:47Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > No, I guess Sam is saying it:Which would mean that T-Bills, which are what the SS trust fund is made up of, are not really backed by the US government. They’re worthless wastepaper. > > Is this what you’re asserting, Sam? Not at all. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/investing-social-security-previously-wow-bush-got-something-right/297967/16 "2005-04-06T03:43:49Z")
> [@Gaudere](#): > > Your title was “wow…Bush got something right” which implies it is so rare as to be breathtaking when it does happen. And it says _nothing_ about what your debate is aside from that Bush is somehow involved. The whole point of your title seemed to be a swipe at Bush since it certainly didn’t convey any useful information that might help people decide if they want to read your OP. My apologies. You are of course correct. 🙂 Now…where is that TP? ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/investing-social-security-previously-wow-bush-got-something-right/297967/17 "2005-04-06T03:47:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Not at all. Great! I’m glad, because I’d hate for you or the President to say that they’re willing to default on all the people who have invested in T-bills, which would include every worker who’s paid social security since the 1980’s. Oh, and all those foreign governments propping up our debt. I mean, it is a pretty easily understood dichotomy – either the US government stands behind, with full faith and credit, US Treasury bills, or they don’t. And if they do, then there really IS a Social Security trust fund. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/investing-social-security-previously-wow-bush-got-something-right/297967/18 "2005-04-06T03:53:21Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Great! I’m glad, because I’d hate for you or the President to say that they’re willing to default on all the people who have invested in T-bills, which would include every worker who’s paid social security since the 1980’s. Oh, and all those foreign governments propping up our debt. > > I mean, it is a pretty easily understood dichotomy – either the US government stands behind, with full faith and credit, US Treasury bills, or they don’t. And if they do, then there really IS a Social Security trust fund. But there’s not really. When it comes time to cash in those T bills…the money comes out of that days budget. There is not a pile of money that they go get it from. Which could be were the money really invested…or just put in a vault somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/investing-social-security-previously-wow-bush-got-something-right/297967/19 "2005-04-06T04:02:43Z")
Reeder: “Money” isn’t any different than a T-bill. It’s a piece of paper backed up by the government. Without the government’s backing, meaning a treasury and executive willing to pay it’s debts in that currency, it’s worthless. If this administration is willing to say “there’s NO money” in the SS fund, that means that T-Bills, the instrument with which the entire deficit and debt of the US goverment is financed, and the SS trust fund, are worthless. You can’t have it both ways. Either the goverment stands behind it’s debt, and therefore it’s currency, with the full resources of the government, or it doesn’t. And if it doesn’t, we’re all broke. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/investing-social-security-previously-wow-bush-got-something-right/297967/20 "2005-04-06T04:09:24Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Reeder: > > “Money” isn’t any different than a T-bill. It’s a piece of paper backed up by the government. Without the government’s backing, meaning a treasury and executive willing to pay it’s debts in that currency, it’s worthless. > > If this administration is willing to say “there’s NO money” in the SS fund, that means that T-Bills, the instrument with which the entire deficit and debt of the US goverment is financed, and the SS trust fund, are worthless. > > You can’t have it both ways. Either the goverment stands behind it’s debt, and therefore it’s currency, with the full resources of the government, or it doesn’t. And if it doesn’t, we’re all broke. The money in the SS trust fund is already spent. Look at it this way… You have a piggy bank that you are putting your retirement funds in. Yet every you put that money in you turn around and spend it on your daily needs. It comes time to retire. Do you have your retirement money there? Your last line says it all. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/investing-social-security-previously-wow-bush-got-something-right/297967.md?page=2)