Invocation/Lord's Prayer at public school graduation

[Shodan]

The schools may neither force, nor prevent, prayer or other religious practices that do not disrupt the educational mission of a school.

The school is responsible for the proceeding no matter what the kids want, and for them to allow (however it may be, through class vote or principal directive) a prayer to occur, it’s no longer separation of church and state.

I would like a cite from the Supreme Court case that decided this, please.

AFAIK, student-led, voluntary prayer is acceptable - students have a First Amendment right to pray. Schools, as an agent of the state, may not deny students their First Amendment rights.

And, as ever, there is no right under the Constitution not to be offended.

Regards,
Shodan

[flyboy]

@Bricker

I don’t think you’re exactly correct.

When a student speaker selected by religiously-neutral criteria – say, for academic achievement – offers prayer, this does not offend the Constitution.

If the valedictorian was a Hindu, and prayed that way, it would be perfectly constitutional.

I will disagree with this if the school knows about the prayer in advance and allows it to happen.

Atheism and Agnosticism

Specifically from the court ruling in ACLU v. Black Horse Regional Brd. of Ed. (1995):

"Graduation at Highland Regional High School, like graduation at nearly any other school, is a school sponsored event. School officials decide the sequence of events and the order of speakers on the program, and ceremonies are typically held on school property at no cost to the students. The atmosphere at Highland’s graduations is characterized by order and uniformity. School officials necessarily “retain a high degree of control over the precise contents of the program, the speeches, the timing, the movements, the dress, and the decorum of the students.” Principal Palatucci testified before the district court that any student who attempted to give an unscheduled address at graduation in contravention of administrative direction would be arrested if police were available, even if a majority of the graduating students had previously approved. The district court carefully questioned the principal about what he would do if a majority of the student body, without administrative approval, voted to have a speaker who would not be included in the program but would be introduced by the valedictorian and allowed to give a one minute speech. The principal responded: “I couldn’t allow that to happen. . . . If I have a police officer, I have her arrested.”

Also from that page:

As the court noted, high school graduation ceremonies are not treated like a public forum where a multiplicity of views on a topic - secular and/or religious - can be discussed. For example, the school board refused a request to have a representative from the ACLU come and speak about safe sex and wouldn’t even consider submitting that topic to a student vote. Although the Court agreed that this particular decision was appropriate, it did simply emphasized the fact that speeches at the ceremonies were government-approved speeches, not simply private speeches at a public forum

Shodan, if you check that page link above, it has lots of cases the courts have decided ruling against this sort of thing (the page is titled “Supreme Court” cases, but I’m too dumb to figure out what court is what). One case ruled in favor (Jones vs. Clear Creek ruled to allow students to put it to a vote), but the rest seem dead set against it, and I think the Jones ruling even gets singled out in a later ruling, pretty much saying it was a bad call. I’d read through it more thoroughly, but I’ve got a 2-year old, a barely-housetrained puppy, and an 11-year old that need looking after. I’ll try later tonight. One last quote from the ruling court on Blackhorse:

An impermissible practice can not be transformed into a constitutionally acceptable one by putting a democratic process to an improper use. There should be no question “that the electorate as a whole, whether by referendum or otherwise, could not order [governmental] action violative of the [Constitution], and the [government] may not avoid the strictures of [the Constitution] by deferring to the wishes or objections of some fraction of the body politic.”

I.e., just 'cause they let the students vote, doesn’t mean they’re not responsible for the outcome.

[Shodan]

I don’t think you are necessarily correct.

The Supreme Court on Monday left in place a lower-court ruling allowing student-led prayers during a Florida county’s high school graduation.

The high court’s refusal to review the case sets no precedent, and the justices could rule on the issue in some future case… The Supreme Court’s action leaves student-led prayer at graduation constitutional in some parts of the country and unconstitutional in others. For instance, an appeals court in the 9th U.S. Circuit - holding sway on the five Pacific states - has said such prayer is unconstitutional. An appeals court in the 5th U.S. Circuit - holding sway in Texas, Louisiana and Mississippi - has ruled that such prayer is constitutional.

Cite.

Regards,
Shodan

[ITR_champion]

I graduated from high school in Kentucky in 2000 and every school in the city had a prayer at the graduation ceremony. The students voted on the issue in advance and prayer always won by large margins. There were no legal challenges that I’m aware of. I’m entirely in favor of the system, since I prefer decision by democracy to decision by nine dictators. I don’t see any reason why a small number of students having to listen to something they don’t like is any more rude and offensive than the government stopping a large number of students from hearing something they do like.

(Since somewhat will no doubt ask, I’d be quite all right with a prayer from a different religious tradition if that’s what the students in some school vote for.)

[Der_Trihs]

@Really Not All That Bright

You could always make a point of sitting down instead of standing and bowing your head or whatever.

Which would make you the focus of all the people that don’t make a point of doing so, which most people find very intimidating, and therefore they go along whether they want to or not. Which of course is the real point of pushing public prayer like this; intimidation. If all they wanted was prayer, they could do that at any time; they want prayer in such a fashion that those who don’t want that particular prayer will have the choice of going along or singling themselves out as targets.

[Zoe]

Just because there were no legal challenges to prayer at a school sponsored activity does not mean that the prayer was legal.

Shodan, the last official word that I heard was that it is a no-no if the activity is school sponsored. A moment of silence is allowed. Nothing else. When the school sponsors prayer, the rights of students and teachers are violated. You may not mind. The sherrif may not mind. That doesn’t make it okay to violate even one person’s right not to have state sponsored prayer forced upon her or him.

It would not take long here before the Muslims rebel against the Christian prayers. We have the largest Kurd population in the United States and we are only a few miles from the Southern Baptist Convention. Irresistable Force meets Immovable Object. Can’t you see the wisom in the ruling?

[OpalCat]

@ITR champion

I don’t see any reason why a small number of students having to listen to something they don’t like is any more rude and offensive than the government stopping a large number of students from hearing something they do like.

It isn’t just that they are listening to somebody pray. The idea is that it is a group prayer, led by the speaker. In spirit, the idea is that the whole group is praying, but one person is putting it into words. In that light (which I believe is how it’s viewed–for example, when a father leads prayer at a family dinner, don’t all the other family and guests consider that the meal has been properly prayed for and don’t need to add an additional prayer of their own? It’s a group ceremony.) leading a prayer at a graduation is essentially forcing everyone present to participate in a religious ceremony that may be entirely against their beliefs. It also makes it socially unacceptable to excuse yourself for the duration of the prayer, so people are pretty much trapped. What’s wrong with a moment of silence?

[UltraVires]

@Diogenes the Cynic

What makes you think the ACLU arrests anybody, or that any arrests would be desired?

The recourse would be a suit in federal court. Don’t think that can’t happen, even in Backass, West Virginia, if somebody really wanted to press it.

Also, WTF do you mean by “the ACLU types have backed themselves into a corner?” What “corner,” and how have they “backed themselves” into it?

AFAIK, the issue has been settled in federal court, and prayer at these school functions are not allowed. So what is the ultimate recourse if a principal says to hell with what SCOTUS says, he is going to have organized prayer at graduation anyways.

At some point in time, to enforce the court decision, the cuffs will have to come out, and that is the “corner” I was talking about. Who wants to handcuff a principal for allowing prayer and be in the firing line of every Christian minister in the country next Sunday morning?

[Who_me_1]

@jtgain

AFAIK, the issue has been settled in federal court, and prayer at these school functions are not allowed. So what is the ultimate recourse if a principal says to hell with what SCOTUS says, he is going to have organized prayer at graduation anyways.

He’ll get the school system sued, and lose. After losing the lawsuit, the school system will probably find that they really don’t need his/her services all that badly anymore.

@jtgain

At some point in time, to enforce the court decision, the cuffs will have to come out, and that is the “corner” I was talking about. Who wants to handcuff a principal for allowing prayer and be in the firing line of every Christian minister in the country next Sunday morning?

As I said above, once the principal starts losing money that the school system can’t afford to lose in lawsuits, that principal won’t be principal much longer.

BTW, I would love to be able to handcuff the principal, but it won’t happen.

[Shodan]

@Zoe

Shodan, the last official word that I heard was that it is a no-no if the activity is school sponsored. A moment of silence is allowed. Nothing else. When the school sponsors prayer, the rights of students and teachers are violated. You may not mind. The sherrif may not mind. That doesn’t make it okay to violate even one person’s right not to have state sponsored prayer forced upon her or him.

No, if the prayer is school sponsored. Schools may not interfere with the First Amendment rights of students.

@OpalCat

leading a prayer at a graduation is essentially forcing everyone present to participate in a religious ceremony that may be entirely against their beliefs.

No, no one is forced to participate. Having someone pray in your presence does not violate your rights. If you wish to join in the student-led prayers, you may do so. If not, you don’t have to. If your sensibilities are so fragile that you are offended by someone else praying in your presence, tough snot.

@Der Trihs

If all they wanted was prayer, they could do that at any time…

Exactly. This is one of the times.

Regards,
Shodan

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@Der Trihs

Which would make you the focus of all the people that don’t make a point of doing so, which most people find very intimidating, and therefore they go along whether they want to or not. Which of course is the real point of pushing public prayer like this; intimidation. If all they wanted was prayer, they could do that at any time; they want prayer in such a fashion that those who don’t want that particular prayer will have the choice of going along or singling themselves out as targets.

I’m not saying that would make it all better. I’m saying if you object to the practice, that’s what you should do.

@ITR Champion

I don’t see any reason why a small number of students having to listen to something they don’t like is any more rude and offensive than the government stopping a large number of students from hearing something they do like.

Do you also not see any reason why a majority of the other students couldn’t vote to cook and eat the dissenter?

[Der_Trihs]

@Really Not All That Bright

I’m not saying that would make it all better. I’m saying if you object to the practice, that’s what you should do.

Only if you are damned stupid or a masochist. Because the next step is getting systematically harassed or beaten up while the teachers somehow never notice it happening. That’s part of the point of all this; to mark out unbelievers for retaliation.

[Nava]

@pbbth

I understand what you are saying, but there is a HUGE difference between seeing religious beads in a rear view mirror and having someone who is leading you in a ceremony you are participating in asking everyone to bow their heads and praying to a god you don’t worship or worship in a completely different way. Especially at the graduations I went to where they had not 1 but 3 or 4 prayers led by 3 or 4 different people. They don’t have to pray, they can sit there thinking it is all a bunch of shit if they want, but it is still incredibly rude and disrespectful of their beliefs IMO to force them to sit through what is essentially mandated prayer to get to go through a graduation ceremony with their peers. Do you think it would have detracted from your graduation ceremony a little bit if you were forced to face east and kneel with everyone else while they prayed to Allah 3 different times?

I never had a graduation ceremony, those don’t exist in most countries.

And I did go to several ceremonies where the person directing asked us to stand, put our hands over our hearts and recite the Pledge of Alliance. In none of them did anybody remark on the fact that I did not put my hand over my heart or say anything. If you’d read my whole post you would have seen that I do not think prayer should be part of graduation ceremonies in public schools - what I was objecting to was your saying that someone reciting a prayer “forces” others to pray. It doesn’t force anybody to pray. It forces them to hear it, tops, not even to listen.

[Shodan]

@Der Trihs

Because the next step is getting systematically harassed or beaten up while the teachers somehow never notice it happening. That’s part of the point of all this; to mark out unbelievers for retaliation.

No doubt you can cite a few examples where public prayer was scheduled at a graduation ceremony in order to find out who the unbelievers are.

Regards,
Shodan

[SkipMagic]

I think this thread is a better fit over in GD. Off it goes.

[Marley23]

After consulting with Goddess Eris and my pineal gland, I’ve decided to move this thread to Great Debates.

[Revtim]

@OpalCat

I agree that it’s rude and offensive. I’m baffled by people who don’t see this.

It’s only rude and offensive to the non-Christians, who aren’t really deserving of respect anyway in a lot of people’s minds.

[UltraVires]

@Who_me?

As I said above, once the principal starts losing money that the school system can’t afford to lose in lawsuits, that principal won’t be principal much longer.

BTW, I would love to be able to handcuff the principal, but it won’t happen.

How could you recover money from the school system in a lawsuit? You don’t have any damages.

I’m sure that there are many athiests who would like to arrest the principal in this case, but I’m talking about a politician (sheriff, DA, governor, president) who would have the political will to do so.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

Once more, nobody wants to “arrest the principal.” That is right wing, CPC fantasy. Atheists are not out to get you, son. You’ve been reading too many Chick comics.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@jtgain

How could you recover money from the school system in a lawsuit? You don’t have any damages.

Do you not understand civil law at all? You don’t have to suffer financial loss to be awarded monetary damages. Cash is just the legal system’s shorthand for the amount of injury suffered by the plaintiff.

Since we don’t go in for that “eye for an eye” stuff, we get paid off instead.