# Involuntary servitude arguments for income tax and the draft **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [April 11, 2008, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/involuntary-servitude-arguments-for-income-tax-and-the-draft/444889 "2008-04-11T13:51:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2008, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/involuntary-servitude-arguments-for-income-tax-and-the-draft/444889/21 "2008-04-15T16:53:13Z")
[QUOTE=Elendil’s Heir] As always, great column, **Gfactor**. I’m afraid that citing OECD statistics in your third paragraph is just going to feed the Tinfoil-Hat Brigade’s paranoia, though. 😛 [/QUOTE] Sigh. Well, we have been getting mail. :o ---
**Author:** ![pingnak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@pingnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pingnak)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/involuntary-servitude-arguments-for-income-tax-and-the-draft/444889/22 "2008-04-16T19:50:52Z")
What’s even more fun is income taxes automatically raise on everyone every year. Way back when they made the rules and developed the tables for the current generation of income taxes, people who made $5,000 a year were doing damned good for themselves. When the income tax was ratified, less than 1% of the population paid any tax at all. Now a family can barely cut it if they make $50,000 a year, and the government steals $20,000 or more according to the write-offs you qualify for (or not). By the definitions that they came up when they made the law, you’re FILTHY RICH, and should be taxed more! After all, $30,000 is still FILTHY RICH. So unless the table gets rewritten as our money becomes worth less and less, and average income grows to compensate, taxes automatically go up like fart bubbles in a bathtub. But adjusting the table to counter inflation… that’s ‘lowering taxes’ on those rich people who make $20,000 in a year and pay $3,000 in taxes, and we obviously can’t have that. So much better to confiscate people’s incomes like they’re common criminals and then give a little bit back at the end of the fiscal year if they’re good and fill out the right forms to beg for it. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/involuntary-servitude-arguments-for-income-tax-and-the-draft/444889/23 "2008-04-16T21:16:30Z")
. Forgive me, but I didn’t follow that at all. Could you rephrase somewhat? . ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/involuntary-servitude-arguments-for-income-tax-and-the-draft/444889/24 "2008-04-16T21:52:26Z")
pingnak means that people automatically move up in tax brackets solely because of inflation. However, I think he may have a point but is largely mistaken. The government adjusts tax brackets periodically. Where he’s right is that it still gives them a way to hike up taxes without looking like they did! In general, our tax system is deeply flawed because we don’t use simple, smooth formulas that automatically track inflation. Instead, we use a system of epicircles of tables, brackets, and manual updating. The non-smoothness of the current functions causes all sorts of problems and, above all, distorts incentives. ---
**Author:** ![RiverRunner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/977dab/32.png) [@RiverRunner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RiverRunner)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/involuntary-servitude-arguments-for-income-tax-and-the-draft/444889/25 "2008-04-17T13:58:45Z")
[They’re at it again,](http://greenvilleonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080411/NEWS01/80411029/-1/rss) this time in a town near me. Amusing quotes: > [@](#): > > Where are you a citizen?" Herlong asked Atwell, who represented himself as he challenged the validity of the federal system, telling the judge that the United States consists only of Washington, D.C. > > “Right here, the country of South Carolina,” Atwell said. > > “That’s not a country,” Herlong said. “It’s a state.” > > “My beliefs are that the states are separate, foreign nations,” Atwell said. Followed by . . . > [@](#): > > Herlong repeatedly admonished Atwell about telling the truth about his claims of citizenship. Atwell served in the U.S. Air Force in his 20s and marked himself down as a U.S. citizen on paperwork to apply for loans, according to testimony. Atwell told the judge that he couldn’t remember claiming citizenship and that he only “voluntarily participated” in the federal system. > > Herlong instructed that the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency be notified that Atwell has renounced his citizenship. Hee. RR ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/involuntary-servitude-arguments-for-income-tax-and-the-draft/444889/26 "2008-04-17T14:14:52Z")
We’ll see the other side of the Country of South Carolina argument in my upcoming staff report on secession. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/involuntary-servitude-arguments-for-income-tax-and-the-draft/444889/27 "2008-04-17T18:34:23Z")
[QUOTE=Gfactor] We’ll see the other side of the Country of South Carolina argument in my upcoming staff report on secession. [/QUOTE] Man, you really love to stick your foot into bear traps, dontcha?? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/involuntary-servitude-arguments-for-income-tax-and-the-draft/444889/28 "2008-04-17T18:43:10Z")
[QUOTE=DSYoungEsq] Man, you really love to stick your foot into bear traps, dontcha?? 😃 [/QUOTE] Yeah, I’d really like to see his take on why the American secession from England was Freedom of the highest glory, and the South’s secession from the US was tretchery of the lowest caliber. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/involuntary-servitude-arguments-for-income-tax-and-the-draft/444889/29 "2008-04-17T18:54:41Z")
[QUOTE=Alex\_Dubinsky] Yeah, I’d really like to see his take on why the American secession from England was Freedom of the highest glory, and the South’s secession from the US was tretchery of the lowest caliber. [/QUOTE] Covered in the first paragraph. But you’ll probably have to wait a couple of months to see it. It’s actually a fairly simple topic. Secession is only permitted under the municipal laws of a few States (and by States, I mean nations). International law is only a tiny bit more accepting of secession than the municipal laws of most countries. There are some exceptions, and those are covered in the staff report. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/involuntary-servitude-arguments-for-income-tax-and-the-draft/444889/30 "2008-04-17T19:05:34Z")
[QUOTE=Gfactor] > [@Bricker](#): > > Outstanding report, GFactor. I would note only that you failed to address the ultimate weak point in the government’s case for taxation: namely, the gold fringe on the flags in the courtroom, which clearly prove the courts to be admiralty courts with no authority over taxation. I _was_ saving that one for those of us who know about it. Thanks. 😛 [/QUOTE] Holy crap, [you guys aren’t kidding](http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=95183). ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/involuntary-servitude-arguments-for-income-tax-and-the-draft/444889/31 "2008-04-17T19:24:47Z")
[QUOTE=Cervaise] Holy crap, [you guys aren’t kidding](http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=95183). [/QUOTE] Sadly, no. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/involuntary-servitude-arguments-for-income-tax-and-the-draft/444889/32 "2008-04-17T19:52:40Z")
[Back in 2006](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=424623&highlight=brown) we had a thread about Ed Brown, a tax protestor who holed up in his house and became a _cause celebre_ among certain fucktardinous factions. [Brown and his wife](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_and_Elaine_Brown) were arrested last October and are now in federal prison. [Page on Idiot Legal Arguments.](http://www.adl.org/mwd/suss1.asp) ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/involuntary-servitude-arguments-for-income-tax-and-the-draft/444889/33 "2008-04-17T20:07:54Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] [Page on Idiot Legal Arguments.](http://www.adl.org/mwd/suss1.asp) [/QUOTE] Cool site. I note, however, that the author has chosen to use the same format for his annotations that the idiots use for their argument. A few paragraph breaks and a little “white” space would go a long way. ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/involuntary-servitude-arguments-for-income-tax-and-the-draft/444889/34 "2008-04-17T21:48:24Z")
I think you should stop calling those people idiots. You should know from your research that a) if there were a valid constitutional argument against taxes or conscription or whatnot, no court would recognize it anyway so we don’t really know if anyone does or doesn’t have a point and b) half the law turns on technicalities, so someone trying use a technicality to argue for their own behalf doesn’t deserve a second glance much less contempt. Bullying people and calling them idiots or crazy, ESPECIALLY when everybody else is doing the same, is the definition of… i’m going to restrain myself and go with, ‘a bad person.’ ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/involuntary-servitude-arguments-for-income-tax-and-the-draft/444889/35 "2008-04-17T22:19:52Z")
[QUOTE=Alex\_Dubinsky] I think you should stop calling those people idiots. [/QUOTE] Personally, I prefer tin foil hat brigade. Beyond that, I’ll just say that not all arguments are created equal. Some arguments have a basis in the methodology used to interpret statutes and the like, and at least acknowledge areas that have already been addressed by the courts. Others are based on bogus historical suppositions, pieces of phrases ripped from their context, and wishful thinking. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/involuntary-servitude-arguments-for-income-tax-and-the-draft/444889/36 "2008-04-17T22:30:50Z")
[QUOTE=Alex\_Dubinsky] I think you should stop calling those people idiots. You should know from your research that a) if there were a valid constitutional argument against taxes or conscription or whatnot, no court would recognize it anyway . . . [/QUOTE] :dubious: It is not, **by definition,** a valid argument until a court recognizes it. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/involuntary-servitude-arguments-for-income-tax-and-the-draft/444889/37 "2008-04-17T23:39:29Z")
[QUOTE=Alex\_Dubinsky] I think you should stop calling those people idiots. You should know from your research that a) if there were a valid constitutional argument against taxes or conscription or whatnot, no court would recognize it anyway so we don’t really know if anyone does or doesn’t have a point and b) half the law turns on technicalities, so someone trying use a technicality to argue for their own behalf doesn’t deserve a second glance much less contempt. Bullying people and calling them idiots or crazy, ESPECIALLY when everybody else is doing the same, is the definition of… i’m going to restrain myself and go with, ‘a bad person.’ [/QUOTE] It is absurd in the extreme to assert that the Supreme Court of the United States automatically upholds legislation as constitutional. It will often wipe off the books legislation that has been passed by Congress, sometimes even legislation that has been around a goodly while. If there WERE a valid constitutional argument, at the very least, it would be recognized as such while being addressed by the Court, even if the result of the decision was contrary to the thrust of the argument. One certainly could expect strong dissent. The last sentence of your post is without much value, and belongs in the Pit, if you analyze it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2008, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/involuntary-servitude-arguments-for-income-tax-and-the-draft/444889/38 "2008-04-18T02:32:48Z")
[QUOTE=Gfactor] It’s actually a fairly simple topic. Secession is only permitted under the municipal laws of a few States (and by States, I mean nations). International law is only a tiny bit more accepting of secession than the municipal laws of most countries. There are some exceptions, and those are covered in the staff report. [/QUOTE] You didn’t _really_ use the expression “municipal law” when addressing a bunch of laymen, did you? ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2008, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/involuntary-servitude-arguments-for-income-tax-and-the-draft/444889/39 "2008-04-18T14:50:04Z")
[QUOTE=Cervaise] Holy crap, [you guys aren’t kidding](http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=95183). [/QUOTE] Tax protestors are my favorite sort of nutjobs (I’m sure Alex will like that term). YEC are entertaining, but in the end, believing God created the Earth 4000 years ago is unlikely to end up with you in jail. Tax protestors are willing to believe and act on things that will have real world implications involving the government taking your property and, if its bad enough, throwing you in jail. Yet, they persist, certain that if there is fringe on the flag and they can say the proper words, the tax code will just fall magically apart and they will walk through the fire unburnt. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2008, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/involuntary-servitude-arguments-for-income-tax-and-the-draft/444889/40 "2008-04-18T20:32:15Z")
[QUOTE=Alex\_Dubinsky] if there were a valid constitutional argument against taxes or conscription or whatnot, no court would recognize it anyway [/quote] Cite, please. > [@](#): > > half the law turns on technicalities I’m tempted to ask for a cite here, too, but meh. I’ll assume it was hyperbole. . [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/involuntary-servitude-arguments-for-income-tax-and-the-draft/444889.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/involuntary-servitude-arguments-for-income-tax-and-the-draft/444889.md?page=3)