# IOKIADDI (It's OK If A Democrat Does It)? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 19, 2013, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iokiaddi-its-ok-if-a-democrat-does-it/666622 "2013-08-19T08:47:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iokiaddi-its-ok-if-a-democrat-does-it/666622/161 "2013-08-21T16:57:09Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Are you now ready to tell us your claim he was \*lying \*was, shall we say, false? :dubious: He declared something happened without proof. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iokiaddi-its-ok-if-a-democrat-does-it/666622/162 "2013-08-21T17:03:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > He declared something happened without proof. When was the last time you looked up “lie” in the dictionary? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iokiaddi-its-ok-if-a-democrat-does-it/666622/163 "2013-08-21T17:09:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Are you serious? You’re citing Bernard Goldberg whining about liberal bias and asking me if I’m serious? What you’re describing as an insider making an observation about his workplace was actually a crank taking his first steps into a growth industry. It’s his career now. Around the time of that piece he gave the public such brilliance as “Don’t Blame Me” (1996), which - I’m quoting from his website here - “showed how the United States was becoming a nation of finger-pointers whose citizens more and more were refusing to accept responsibility for their actions.” Then there was "In Your Face, America (1998), “about how vulgar and uncivil our popular culture was becoming.” Hard hitting stuff that has no bearing on his later work, like “Bias: A CBS Insider Exposes How the Media Distort the News,” “Arrogance: Rescuing America from the Media Elite,” “100 People Who Are Screwing Up America,” “Crazies to the Left of Me, Wimps to the Right: How One Side Lost Its Mind and the Other Lost Its Nerve,” and “A Slobbering Love Affair: The True (And Pathetic) Story of the Torrid Romance Between Barack Obama and the Mainstream Media.” If you want to attempt a nuanced discussion of news and implicit culture, this frothing dingbat is pretty much the worst place you could start. > [@](#): > > That fact refutes your comment that his credibility is suspect because he makes a living complaining about anti-conservative bias. Even if he does now, he didn’t in 1996, or in 2001 when the book I quoted was published. Everybody has to start somewhere. > [@](#): > > 1. His invocation of broadcast journalists living in Omaha cannot in any way be read to suggest that every single person from Omaha is conservative And not every person in Manhattan is a rich liberal hypocrite who sends his/her children to private schools and whose friends work in high finance. Gee, Goldberg’s generalities here seem awfully specific and contemptuous for someone who is merely making a point about the prevailing culture. It sort of almost reads like an attack on people he dislikes. > [@](#): > > 1. This is the worst of the SDMB. In a thread ostensibly about exploring bias, you can post such utter fucking drivel as those arguments, and not be immediately chastised by a dozen other posters, is just monumentally illustrative of the very bias we discuss. There there, there there. At least the fact people don’t agree with you proves you were right all along. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iokiaddi-its-ok-if-a-democrat-does-it/666622/164 "2013-08-21T17:40:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > When was the last time you looked up “lie” in the dictionary? When I was 7. Lets go to the dictionary: 1. A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood. 2. Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression. v. lied, ly·ing (lng), lies v.intr. 1. To present false information with the intention of deceiving. 2. To convey a false image or impression: Appearances often lie. What Kerry did was present information which he himself did not experience that implied his fellow soldiers were rampaging through the country. He LIED. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iokiaddi-its-ok-if-a-democrat-does-it/666622/165 "2013-08-21T18:29:09Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And not every person in Manhattan is a rich liberal hypocrite who sends his/her children to private schools and whose friends work in high finance. Gee, Goldberg’s generalities here seem awfully specific and contemptuous for someone who is merely making a point about the prevailing culture. It sort of almost reads like an attack on people he dislikes. True – but if your life depended on quickly finding a rich liberal who sends his/her children to private schools and whose friends work in high finance, in which city would you start your search, New York or Omaha? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iokiaddi-its-ok-if-a-democrat-does-it/666622/166 "2013-08-21T18:29:17Z")
A lie means the information being presented is false. Your own damn definitions say so. Now, on what basis do you believe the information presented was false? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iokiaddi-its-ok-if-a-democrat-does-it/666622/167 "2013-08-21T18:38:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > True – but if your life depended on quickly finding a rich liberal who sends his/her children to private schools and whose friends work in high finance, in which city would you start your search, New York or Omaha? I’d go to Warren Buffet’s house. New York City traffic is murder. 😉 I do think it’s possible to have a useful discussion about this, for what it’s worth- although it’s still something different from the original subject of the thread. I don’t think that discussion starts with Bernie Goldberg and the usual nonsense about elitism. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iokiaddi-its-ok-if-a-democrat-does-it/666622/168 "2013-08-21T18:56:11Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > What Kerry did was present information which he himself did not experience that implied his fellow soldiers were rampaging through the country. He LIED. Oh, for fuck’s sake. :rolleyes: You could have looked it up in less time than it’s taken you to deny it. [Here:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_soldiers) > [@](#): > > Credibility of the veterans and their testimony[edit source | editbeta]Since the first day of the WSI event and for more than thirty years since, individuals and organizations have sought to discredit or at least minimize the painful revelations brought forth at that event. Critics have claimed that participants were frauds; that they were told to not cooperate with later investigators; that their testimonies were inaccurate or just plain fabricated.[19] To date, no records of fraudulent participants or fraudulent testimony have been produced.[11] > > Verifying the participants[edit source | editbeta]The organizers of the Winter Soldier Investigation took several steps to ensure the validity of the participants. Each veteran’s authenticity was checked before the hearings by the investigation event organizers, and subsequently by reporters and Pentagon officials. In addition, they also gave specific details about their units and the locations where the events had occurred. Those who wanted to testify were carefully screened by the officers of VVAW, and care was taken to verify the service records and testimony of the veterans. After the severe criticism of the accuracy of Mark Lane’s book about atrocities a month before the event, the organizers of the Winter Soldier Investigation made the credibility of the participants a top priority. As noted by one VVAW leader, “The lesson is that we’d better do our work right. We’d better talk to these vets and weed out the bullshitters so that we can’t get set up, because we’re going to come under attack. We’re going to do this right.”[6] All veterans participating in Winter Soldier were required to bring their discharge papers (DD-214’s) and IDs.[11] > > The identifying military affiliation of each veteran testifying, including in almost all cases, the dates of service, appears on the roster for each panel that was included with the testimony in the Congressional Record. [10] > > Verifying the testimony[edit source | editbeta]The organizers had two primary concerns when considering the testimony they would use. They wanted testimony that wouldn’t allow the scapegoating of individuals when they were attempting to show what was being done in Vietnam was due to policy, not decisions by individual GIs. They also wanted the testimony to be accurate, and double and sometimes triple confirmed by others in the same units. Specific sets of questions were drafted by experienced combat vets to help verify that participants were not fabricating their stories or faking their knowledge, and that only the strongest testimony was used.[11][20] > > According to Army reports compiled by the Criminal Investigation Command (CID) and later reported by the Village Voice following declassification, the Army found the allegations made by 46 veterans at the hearings to merit further inquiry. As of March 1972, the CID reported successfully locating 36 of the people who had testified, 31 of whom submitted to interviews.[21] > > One WSI participant, Jamie Henry, had reported the massacre he described at the hearings [22] to the Army, which investigated and subsequently confirmed his story. However, the details of the investigation were not made public until 2006, when the Los Angeles Times published the declassified information. But somehow you know they were all lying, and that at best Kerry should have known that. How is that? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iokiaddi-its-ok-if-a-democrat-does-it/666622/169 "2013-08-21T19:11:27Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Oh, for fuck’s sake. :rolleyes: You could have looked it up in less time than it’s taken you to deny it. [Here:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_soldiers) > > But somehow you know they were all lying, and that at best Kerry should have known that. How is that? First, keep in mind that during his testimony, the sack of shit that goes by the name John Kerry used the word “We” repeatedly, when describing the supposed atrocities. Second, [here you go.](http://www.wintersoldier.com/staticpages/index.php?page=WSI_CID) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iokiaddi-its-ok-if-a-democrat-does-it/666622/170 "2013-08-21T19:34:40Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > First, keep in mind that during his testimony, the sack of shit that goes by the name John Kerry used the word “We” repeatedly, when describing the supposed atrocities. The transcript has already been linked. Show us the lies, please. :dubious: > [@](#): > > Second, [here you go.](http://www.wintersoldier.com/staticpages/index.php?page=WSI_CID) Thanks for the supporting evidence. Almost every single example there has the conclusion, by the military’s own investigators with their own incentives to whitewash it, “Investigation completed; insufficient evidence”. That, of course, discounts the statements by the participants themselves. And what else \*could \*you conclude years later on a different continent? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iokiaddi-its-ok-if-a-democrat-does-it/666622/171 "2013-08-21T20:02:32Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The transcript has already been linked. Show us the lies, please. :dubious: I did. Aside from most of the stuff bing recanted or shown to be untrue, he used the word “we”. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Thanks for the supporting evidence. Almost every single example there has the conclusion, by the military’s own investigators with their own incentives to whitewash it, “Investigation completed; insufficient evidence”. That, of course, discounts the statements by the participants themselves. And what else \*could \*you conclude years later on a different continent? Supporting evidence? HA! Try reading it maybe. Feel free to click through the site as well. Many of the people withdrew their claims an/or said they lied. And that they were encouraged come up with shit at the meeting. Kerry is a piece of shit. He had dreams of being the next JFK, went to Vietnam to build up some war hero creed. made sure he got three quick purple hearts for a couple of scratches, then came back and sold out his fellow soldiers and America all in order to launch himself onto a national stage. And let’s not forget about him throwing his medals away and then, presto, when he wants them to bolder his lie as a patriot warrior, they reappear. I’ll give him this much, it worked. The man is a walking lie. I love the picture of the cock-sure piece of shit “reporting for duty”, then getting his ass handed to him. Still, apologists like you and others on the left try to make the Swift Boat Veterans the bad guys. It’s Bizzaro world when you guys control the media. Hanoi Jane would be proud of you. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iokiaddi-its-ok-if-a-democrat-does-it/666622/172 "2013-08-21T20:15:53Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I did. Wrong. > [@](#): > > Aside from most of the stuff bing recanted or shown to be untrue Also wrong. > [@](#): > > he used the word “we”. Show us the lie, please. > [@](#): > > Supporting evidence? HA! Try reading it maybe. I did. In fact, I quoted more of it than you did. > [@](#): > > Kerry is a piece of shit. So he must have lied to Congress, huh? Doesn’t work that way in the adult world, sorry. > [@](#): > > Still, apologists like you and others on the left try to make the Swift Boat Veterans the bad guys. No, it’s their \*lying \*that makes them the bad guys. Check into it sometime. > [@](#): > > Hanoi Jane would be proud of you. :D:p:) This is worth your while, too, since it enrages you so: [http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial\_opinion/oped/articles/2004/04/27/i\_watched\_kerry\_throw\_his\_war\_decorations/](http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/04/27/i_watched_kerry_throw_his_war_decorations/) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iokiaddi-its-ok-if-a-democrat-does-it/666622/173 "2013-08-21T20:19:00Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > He’s more biased than any of them, though. Prove it. > [@](#): > > Reread Goldberg’s comments about Omaha and perhaps you will figure this out. This makes no sense. You alleged that Rather could not be a liberal because he is from Texas. Please demonstrate that this is the case. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iokiaddi-its-ok-if-a-democrat-does-it/666622/174 "2013-08-21T20:43:35Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Prove it. Reread the names of his books. > [@](#): > > You alleged that Rather could not be a liberal because he is from Texas. No. This is not that complicated. Goldberg said the press would be look at things differently if more reporters came from conservative Omaha instead of effete, elitist New York. I pointed out that the guy he was just knocking (Rather) is from conservative Texas. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iokiaddi-its-ok-if-a-democrat-does-it/666622/175 "2013-08-21T20:49:08Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > …he used the word “we”… Who’d you have in mind? Our soldiers, our flag, our weapons. Think it was the Klingons? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iokiaddi-its-ok-if-a-democrat-does-it/666622/176 "2013-08-21T20:52:20Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Reread the names of his books. > > No. This is not that complicated. Goldberg said the press would be look at things differently if more reporters came from conservative Omaha instead of effete, elitist New York. I pointed out that the guy he was just knocking (Rather) is from conservative Texas. Goldberg said that the press would look at things differently if more reporters **lived** in conservative Omaha: > [@](#): > > Now make believe that **they broadcast the news each night, not from Manhattan** , the most liberal enclave in America (except maybe for Hollywood and a few college towns), but from Omaha, Nebraska. Imagine, too, **that their neighbors** are not highly paid, sophisticated New Yorkers who, like the media elites, send their children to expensive private schools in Manhattan with the overwhelmingly white sons and daughters of other wealthy, sophisticated New Yorkers - even as they bemoan how segregated by race and class America remains. > > Imagine instead that **they send their kids to the Omaha public schools** , where their children sit next to mostly middle-class boys and girls whose parents aren’t big shots in the world of high finance and law and journalism, but mostly work in less glamorous jobs at Mutual of Omaha or at the county courthouse or on a farm or maybe even at the hardware store. Do we really think that if the media elites worked out of Nebraska instead of New York, and if they were overwhelmingly social conservatives instead of liberals, and if they overwhelmingly voted for Nixon and Reagan instead of McGovern and Mondale… do we really think that would make no difference? He didn’t say much of anything about being _from_ there. His entire focus was on living there. Wasn’t it? C’mon. You can tell the truth. Every reader already knows. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iokiaddi-its-ok-if-a-democrat-does-it/666622/177 "2013-08-21T21:11:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Goldberg said that the press would look at things differently if more reporters **lived** in conservative Omaha Same difference. He’s talking about what he thinks it would be like if they were part of a more conservative culture, not what would happen if their jobs were moved to Omaha tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iokiaddi-its-ok-if-a-democrat-does-it/666622/178 "2013-08-21T22:54:33Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Same difference. He’s talking about what he thinks it would be like if they were part of a more conservative culture, not what would happen if their jobs were moved to Omaha tomorrow. It’s not the “same difference” as Dan Rather having lived in Texas back in 1974, Marley. That would be what logicians might call a “different difference.” The mere fact that Rather lived in Texas once, but spent the last twenty-five years living in New York, does not remotely suggest that Goldberg was remiss in failing to mention it when comparing the environments of New York and Texas. How long are you going to continue insisting that this absolutely absurd, bereft-of-logic claim of yours has any legs at all? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iokiaddi-its-ok-if-a-democrat-does-it/666622/179 "2013-08-22T00:49:40Z")
OK, so why should I put any special trust in this Goldberg guy? So he worked there, so did a lot of guys who don’t echo his views. So what? As to your stinging rebuttal that he wasn’t actually making a living bitching about the liberal media at the time, ok, again, so what? It isn’t possible he saw an opportunity and went for it? Maybe he thought he’d have a chance now with Ann Coulter? Dan Rather obviously doesn’t agree, and he worked there. And, just as you say, he is a native Texan, a people widely celebrated for their clear thinking and warm modesty. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iokiaddi-its-ok-if-a-democrat-does-it/666622/180 "2013-08-22T01:02:10Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > OK, so why should I put any special trust in this Goldberg guy? So he worked there, so did a lot of guys who don’t echo his views. So what? As to your stinging rebuttal that he wasn’t actually making a living bitching about the liberal media at the time, ok, again, so what? It isn’t possible he saw an opportunity and went for it? Maybe he thought he’d have a chance now with Ann Coulter? > > Dan Rather obviously doesn’t agree, and he worked there. And, just as you say, he is a native Texan, a people widely celebrated for their clear thinking and warm modesty. Cart before horse. I offered Goldberg, M says G is not credible, I ask why, M says (1) G makes a living bitching; (2) G didn’t reveal Dan Rather was from Texas. “So what,” then, is: **So reason (1) offered by Marley is wrong.** And **So reason (2) offered by Marley is wrong.** Now you come along and say, “Why should I trust him?” That’s a different question than Marley saying, “Here’s why I don’t trust him.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iokiaddi-its-ok-if-a-democrat-does-it/666622.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iokiaddi-its-ok-if-a-democrat-does-it/666622.md?page=10)