IP and copyright. What is your view?

Seeing as sales are up, that means that music is having to get cheaper in order to compete. This is a good thing, as music has long been greatly overpriced. There’s no reason why the MPAA and RIAA should be so out of proportion with the rest of society.

An example are Internet shows that use a much smaller budget, with the creators living comfortably from their income just from ad revenue–in a world where at least half their audience blocks the ads and prevents them from getting revenue.

The idea that artists need to be so dadblasted rich in order to produce content is ridiculous, and the ubiquity of the Internet is finally letting content producers do an end run around publishers who are mostly in the business to get rich themselves.

How do you measure “overpriced”? Compared to what?

You can’t compare it to “the rest of society.”

It is none of your business how rich an artist is though. Artists own their work and can charge whatever they want for it. If you think the price is too high, don’t buy. The fact that a product costs more than you want to pay for it doesn’t mean the producer should be forced to give it away.

Until you stop rationalizing stealing, you have no credibility.

You don’t get to impose your personal views on others by taking their stuff when you think it ought to be legal to do so.

What does that graphic have to do with the amount of music sold? I’ve given an authoritative cite that music sales are higher than ever. You’ve come back with one that says that some of them are digital, and that digital sales are cheaper than physical. My cite also said that, but I didn’t draw attention to it because I thought it was completely obvious.

So, what is your point? The only valid point I can see is that increased digital sales of music is harming the people who distribute physical music products. How is that relevant to this discussion?

Until you stop lying about people stealing, you have no credibility. Theft, in this context, is taking someone else’s work, and selling it yourself, without compensating the creator. No-one is supporting doing that.

No, theft is taking someone else’s work without permission. Period.

To take it without paying for it denies the owner money, even if you don’t turn around and sell it or give it away yourself.

Yes, but no-one is justifying taking anything. To take something requires that I have it, and the original owner does not. What we are talking about is copying something, which is both legally and morally different.

As you’ll be aware if you’ve read this thread or the other one, it only denies the creator money of someone copies something for free that they would otherwise have bought. The evidence shows that this is not happening.

There may be a valid argument against piracy, but no-one in either of these threads has come up with it yet. The closest I can come to one is that it requires artists to actually work for a living, and produce art that people want to buy after they’ve seen or heard it. I don’t see that as a bad thing personally, if anything it simply makes artists the same as all other economic actors.

It is not legally different. Perhaps it is morally different, but that’s an argument for abolishing copyright. It doesn’t justify violating copyright.

LOL!

Yeah, right. Nobody’s copying what they would otherwise buy, and nobody’s illegally copying and selling. No piracy out there at all. The problem doesn’t exist. :rolleyes:

I don’t understand this comment. Please try again.

IP exists to create a market for ideas and art and encourage disclosure for the public good. Without it, we’d have alot less art or inventions.

I own some IP that I’m earning money with, and I’m of the opinion that 20 years should be more than enough.

It is legally different, in point of fact. They are different offences with different punishments.

Piracy exists, but the evidence suggests it’s not a problem. Please explain how, in conjunction with massive amounts of piracy, sales of content are up? I’ve already cited this, so don’t claim they aren’t.

Perhaps you should try reading it again.

Firstly, learn to spell. “A lot” is two words.

Secondly, that’s true. That’s why I’m opposed to IP theft, as I’ve repeatedly stated. The difference is that I, unlike you, understand what is, and what isn’t, IP theft.

Okay. Whatever. Not relevant though.

Sorry, but that’s not a “study.”

Your logic is full of holes. First of all, sales may be up - but it may have been up even higher without piracy. Second, sales volume isn’t the only factor - if prices drop to compete with pirates, that’s also a harm to legitimate sellers.

No thanks.

Please don’t start this kind of thing.

You clearly don’t if you think that copying without reselling isn’t theft, or how that hurts copyright holders.

I was really only talking about software as a special case. For other creative works, I can understand why “life plus” became the standard: no one wants to see their creation enter the public domain during their own lifetime. The original term of copyright, in Days of Yore, was 14 years plus an option to renew for a further 14. And back then, that was enough; you probably wouldn’t make it much past 50 anyway, so 28 years seems plenty long. Not long after that (1831), the term increased to 28 years plus a 14 year extension.

Now, of course, we’re up to “life plus 70”, or in the case of works for hire, 95 years from date of publication or 120 years from date of creation. That just seems way, way too long; an author’s great-grandchildren will be continuing to profit from the author’s works long after he’s gone. At the most, I think “life plus 20” is reasonable. That will ensure that, if an artist dies young or something, his spouse and children will receive income from his works until his children are over 18 and able to earn for themselves.

Big T, perhaps you’ve stated it already in the thread, and I haven’t yet seen it, but what science supports a maximum length of 14 years for copyright? Even if there have been studies on marketing and reinforcement that suggest most works achieve most of their remuneration within 14 years, I wouldn’t place that much faith in that research. Not enough to drastically curtail copyright from the term of even the Founders’ time. Although, IIRC, copyright renewal, back in the day, was fraught with difficulty: there were a lot of procedural hoops to jump through and many authors’ heirs were excluded from renewing the copyright on their relatives’ works.

Lance strongarm, considering the purpose of the limited monopoly in Article 1 Section 8 is to encourage artists to produce creative works, surely the degree of encouragement—how much money the artists make from those works—is relevant to the discussion? If “society” can get as many works from artists if the monopoly term or its scope was reduced, due to artists making “enough” money within a short period of time, shouldn’t the monopoly term be reduced? Again, it’s an artificial monopoly designed to reward creators for the time, energy and materials they used in creating their work, be it an artistic work (copyright) or a scientific discovery (patent).

Max Torque, we don’t seem to have a problem with patents expiring within the lifetime of their creator. Why should we have a problem then with the idea of copyrights expiring within their creator’s life?

It won’t be adopted—Berne and large media companies will see to that—but my own desire for copyright terms is that they be of much more limited duration, and come with a renewal period, during which all authorial rights automatically revert to the author or her heirs. This would allow for renegotiation of licenses, possibly leading to greater renumeration for the author. If the work was a work for hire, then the author would be the hiring entity. But the concept of enforced renegotiation would still apply. The monopoly’s supposed to encourage authors to keep creating, not to encourage them to create one work and stop creating. Which is my main problem with the gigantic length of current copyright terms.

In a perfect world, I’d also like to see a concept applied to patent and copyright from the trademark world: the idea that the protected work must be actively used in commerce. For patent, I’d apply that concept to mean that the protected invention must have an embodiment created and available for sale. For copyright, that the work must be still published and available for sale. A shorter term would solve many of the pesky orphan works problems, but I’d encourage development of a procedure to extinguish protection on works that aren’t available for sale. I categorically reject the idea that the artist should be allowed to take their work and use copyright to shield it from commerce. I want to see the artist get paid for their labor, but if the artist doesn’t want to be paid, then get out of the way and let someone else market it.

It’s not relevant that two things that you are claiming are the same are legally and morally different? Of course it is. Your claiming otherwise is simply proof you have no argument.

Prices aren’t dropping to compete with pirates, they are dropping because there are much lower distribution costs associated with digital media than with physical. What you fail to understand is there is no competition between sales and piracy. This has been proven repeatedly over the last 15 years of digital piracy, and at every point since copying first became possible.

It is not theft, by any meaningful definition of theft. Theft involves taking something that you don’t have a right to take. Digital piracy does not do this, as nothing is taken.

If it harms copyright holders, show how, with cites. I and others have repeatedly cited that it doesn’t, and you’ve had both cites and anecdotes that show it actually helps them. Stop handwaving them away, and show what’s wrong with them, if there is anything.

I never said they were the same legally. They are similar. Of course property laws vary by type of property. So what?

Prove it then. Show me a good study or whatever.

Please stop this nonsense. I’m not going to engage in a discussion where you go around saying IP isn’t real and therefore it doesn’t exist, etc.

I already did.

I have no problem with changes to it. I just don’t want to abolish IP altogether.

I didn’t say that. I’ve said repeatedly that I’m against IP theft, and that creators have the complete, sole right to profit from their creations, for a reasonable period of time.

You haven’t cited anything in this thread.

Taking something without permission is theft. Even if you unilaterally declare that no harm is done. That is not for you to decide.

I explained why your claims didn’t support your conclusions. Again:

Your logic is full of holes. First of all, sales may be up - but it may have been up even higher without piracy. Second, sales volume isn’t the only factor - if prices drop to compete with pirates, that’s also a harm to legitimate sellers.

The terms are different because patents protect useful articles, and if useful articles were protected for 120 years at a stretch, technology would slow to a crawl. Twenty years is about as long as you can sell a useful article anyway, before it’s surpassed by something better.

In addition, while patented items are “creative”, they simply aren’t the same as, say, characters in a book or film. Thomas Edison doesn’t have to worry about seeing dick-shaped light bulbs and people making the mental connection that “Edison means dick-shaped light bulbs”. Walt Disney, however, would have to worry about someone drawing dicks all over “Steamboat Willy” and selling it far and wide (and of course people are going to draw dicks all over “Steamboat Willy” when it enters the public domain, why wouldn’t they) and the public will forever think of his beloved character cheerily steering that steamboat with his dick. I can understand a creator not being real happy about seeing that during his lifetime, but if you don’t, I can’t really see either of us changing the other’s mind, so I’ll leave it at that.

For your first paragraph, I’ll make two comments. Life + 70 and uber-strict copyright enforcement also has the potential of slowing creative work development to a crawl, IMHO. Spider Robinson’s “Melancholy Elephants” is a delightful short story exemplifying this concept. Second, I disagree about the commercial utility expiring after 20 years. Drug companies, for one, would be delighted if they could keep, e.g., Lipitor, under patent. I agree with you that the current U.S. patent term is long enough, however, and may even be too long. That, and the USPTO seemingly grants a patent to anyone who pays their fees…

To your second point, wouldn’t trademark (which has no duration limit) protect the image of Mickey Mouse from being used by somebody else to defraud the customer? As to defacing the work, that’s already protected in U.S. copyright law, provided it’s a parody of the protected work. Just ask 2 Live Crew. But I agree with you in that I suspect we have different attitudes towards the protectability of something like Duchamp’s L.H.O.O.Q or the graffiti-ed black and white tribesman photograph cited either in this thread or the other IMHO copyright discussion. My view is that Disney’s heirs will just have to console their wounded egos from watching ‘Steamboat’s Willy’ with a giant poultice of cash.