# IPA in the SDMB **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [August 9, 2016, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ipa-in-the-sdmb/762291 "2016-08-09T23:55:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2016, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ipa-in-the-sdmb/762291/21 "2016-08-10T15:51:36Z")
I will not object to a ban on IPA if we also ban mathematical notation. I come here for fun not for learns. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2016, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ipa-in-the-sdmb/762291/22 "2016-08-10T15:52:59Z")
I am a fan of the IPA (both definitions, but let’s stick to phonetics), but I think it’s most useful to back it up with a more real-language transcription. This has the advantage of both speaking to both audiences, and perhaps helping those who don’t understand IPA to figure it out more casually. Trying to use just a real-language transcription also has its problems (I recall a thread where a British poster was trying to explain that he pronounced the “castle” CAR-sil, to the confusion of most American Dopers). Also, proponents of IPA would do well to realize that it’s not necessary to use it in its full form. In [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=800219), [ˈɹeɪ̈dɨoʊ̈] and [ˈsɒntoʊ̈ ˈvoʊ̈t͡ʃeɪ̈] were presented as examples of why IPA can be too obscure. I think it’s fine to just type it ['reɪ dioʊ] or even ['re dio] and let people pronounce the Rs and diphthongs as they will. So if you know IPA, simplify it, then back it up with something else. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2016, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ipa-in-the-sdmb/762291/23 "2016-08-10T16:15:14Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > IPA is easily learned by elementary-school children (cite: my nephews.) If only it were a regular part of the curriculum. It’s day one (know it on day two; we’re not going over this again) of any intro to linguistics class. Anyone who understands its utility, is interested in discussing pronunciation, and refuses to understand it is deliberately ignorant and should not be accommodated. you mean it’s easily learned by children who are in the prime language-learning years of their lives? Ya don’t say! ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2016, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ipa-in-the-sdmb/762291/24 "2016-08-10T16:17:51Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > I am a fan of the IPA (both definitions, but let’s stick to phonetics), but I think it’s most useful to back it up with a more real-language transcription. This has the advantage of both speaking to both audiences, and perhaps helping those who don’t understand IPA to figure it out more casually. Trying to use just a real-language transcription also has its problems (I recall a thread where a British poster was trying to explain that he pronounced the “castle” CAR-sil, to the confusion of most American Dopers). > > Also, proponents of IPA would do well to realize that it’s not necessary to use it in its full form. In [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=800219), [ˈɹeɪ̈dɨoʊ̈] and [ˈsɒntoʊ̈ ˈvoʊ̈t͡ʃeɪ̈] were presented as examples of why IPA can be too obscure. I think it’s fine to just type it ['reɪ dioʊ] or even ['re dio] and let people pronounce the Rs and diphthongs as they will. > > So if you know IPA, simplify it, then back it up with something else. What’s the point of using IPA if it’s inaccurate? There are times to write in that manner, but that’s a phonemic transcription, while we were discussing pronunciation. I get the idea of using both (and I did back when I had an easier way to type IPA), but why not use it accurately so that people learn accurately? This poll is obviously going to be weighted towards those who already know IPA. But, even if it weren’t, the number of people who don’t know it means we still have to explain it as we use it. And, as I said there, the annoyance of how it is typed (especially on mobile) makes it where I don’t want to bother. I am a fan of English respellings for people who understand English, as less of it has to be explained. Only when we are discussing sounds not available in English do I see any real need of IPA. That’s why it exists, after all. Not for people speaking the same language. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2016, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ipa-in-the-sdmb/762291/25 "2016-08-10T16:17:56Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Translated into English: “_Of course we should use IPA to post such things. It’s the standard._” > > It took me fully ten minutes to figure out how to translate that. Whereas I can read the stuff about 1/4 the speed I can read written English – a little slower than my regular speaking pace but adequate for reading out loud. (And if it switches to Russian or Hungarian in the next paragraph, I can keep going, and I can read the IPA a helluva lot faster than I can read Russian or Hungarian!) Anyway, what’s the alternative? All other phonetic markup approaches are • less universally known • less consistent in how they are used within the same system (see ŏ versus ä for spot and father, respectively, in English dictionaries from the 1960s) • have too much overlap with symbols used in other contexts — ä in English is a very different thing from ä in German! True of IPA as well, I suppose, but it combines with “less universally known” to create phonetic chaos … or, in the absence of any phonetic markup, you get conversations like this: “It’s pronounced like ‘walk’ except without the ‘l’ sound” “What ‘l sound’? You don’t pronounce walk with any kind of ‘l’ sound, it’s silent!” “The hell you say! If you didn’t pronounce the ‘l’, ‘walk’ would sound like ‘wok’ instead!” “No, the ‘a’ sound in ‘walk’ is nothing like the ‘o’ sound in ‘wok’!” ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2016, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ipa-in-the-sdmb/762291/26 "2016-08-10T16:47:02Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > What’s the point of using IPA if it’s inaccurate? There are times to write in that manner, but that’s a phonemic transcription, while we were discussing pronunciation. I get the idea of using both (and I did back when I had an easier way to type IPA), but why not use it accurately so that people learn accurately? > > This poll is obviously going to be weighted towards those who already know IPA. But, even if it weren’t, the number of people who don’t know it means we still have to explain it as we use it. And, as I said there, the annoyance of how it is typed (especially on mobile) makes it where I don’t want to bother. > > I am a fan of English respellings for people who understand English, as less of it has to be explained. Only when we are discussing sounds not available in English do I see any real need of IPA. That’s why it exists, after all. Not for people speaking the same language. There are levels of precision. For most applications, a pared down version is sufficient to get the point across. The problem with “English respellings” has already been addressed: there are too many dialects of English. (“Castle” pronounced “CAR-sil”.) Then we end up arguing over how the example should be pronounced. Nico Castel uses pared down IPA in his libretto transcriptions. That’s enough evidence for me that its sufficient for almost every application. And far easier to read and understand. I can accept the argument that the transcription of radio should at least include the diphthongs and proper R, but the diacritics are entirely unnecessary. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2016, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ipa-in-the-sdmb/762291/27 "2016-08-10T16:54:57Z")
I don’t understand what is being asked: Should we be allowed to use IPA to indicate pronunciation? _Yes, of course. Are we not now?_ Should we be required to use IPA to indicate pronunciation? _No, of course not._ Something else entirely? _Bring it on and I’ll let you know what I think._ ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2016, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ipa-in-the-sdmb/762291/28 "2016-08-10T16:59:40Z")
I think what’s being asked is “Do you like the use of the IPA to explain pronunciation on the SDMB?” ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2016, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ipa-in-the-sdmb/762291/29 "2016-08-10T17:06:30Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t understand what is being asked: … Well, in the threads linked in my OP, there were varying opinions expressed on how to explain the pronunciation of words, including strong advocates of IPA and strong opponents of IPA. So I was interested to see how the numbers turn out in a poll on the subject. I didn’t really expect many votes for options 1 and 5 (making IPA compulsory and banning IPA, respectively) – and so far I’m right on that. However, so far a plurality is emerging in favour of preferring IPA, which is interesting in view of how vocal some opponents of IPA have been. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2016, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ipa-in-the-sdmb/762291/30 "2016-08-10T17:07:27Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > IPA was brewed so it could withstand the long trip to India. As such it’s something less than fulfilling. I don’t know what is taken out, but I basically don’t like it. It’s crap beer that only a peasant would find appealing, think Coors Light. > > I’m sure others prefer a decent porter or stout, but to insist the teeming millions stick to IPA is just … well … just so American … no offense intended. Nothing was taken out. It is brewed with more hops and more alcohol, which both have a preservative effect on the flavor. The appeal of more alcohol is obvious, and the addition of more hops is the element that the previous poster called “medicinal.” Like all flavorings, it’s up to an individual palate. (As for me: give me a good porter or stout, but not an IPA. Too much hops will ruin anything.) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2016, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ipa-in-the-sdmb/762291/31 "2016-08-10T17:17:26Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > I think what’s being asked is “Do you like the use of the IPA to explain pronunciation on the SDMB?” I don’t read it, so I neither like it nor dislike it. I just ignore it. I’m sure it’s very useful for people who read it, and completely useless for those who don’t. But… I can’t imagine we need to take any action with respect to it one way or the other. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2016, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ipa-in-the-sdmb/762291/32 "2016-08-10T17:21:39Z")
The OP’s not advocating action. It’s an opinion poll. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2016, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ipa-in-the-sdmb/762291/33 "2016-08-10T17:22:04Z")
My biggest problem with the IPA you write instead of drink: I would only use it when I’m typing, and it’s too much work to produce all the odd characters required by IPA. For that matter, I’m not even confident which applications will reliably reproduce those characters… which is maybe more of a 1996 concern than a 2016 one, but call me old-fashioned. If I’m e-mailing or posting, I want to be sure the recipient sees what I sent and I still don’t have that confidence with extended character sets. It would be much better for a system like IPA to use two- or three-letter combinations from the basic ASCII set. That might create some confusion if laymen misinterpret the pronunciation by making incorrect assumptions about the formal system, but at least it’s something they could make assumptions about. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2016, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ipa-in-the-sdmb/762291/34 "2016-08-10T17:38:27Z")
IPA shows up in Tapatalk and mobile Chrome, which along with standard browsers probably accounts for 99%+ of users. As far as typing it, there are sites like [this](http://ipa.typeit.org/full/) that make it pretty straightforward (for characters that are on a standard keyboard, just use those). If you’re composing on mobile it’s a lot more complicated, but that’s not a problem unique to typing in IPA. Anyway, if it’s too much trouble, don’t use it. Just be prepared for potential confusion. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2016, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ipa-in-the-sdmb/762291/35 "2016-08-10T17:45:09Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > My biggest problem with the IPA you write instead of drink: I would only use it when I’m typing, and it’s too much work to produce all the odd characters required by IPA. For that matter, I’m not even confident which applications will reliably reproduce those characters… which is maybe more of a 1996 concern than a 2016 one, but call me old-fashioned. If I’m e-mailing or posting, I want to be sure the recipient sees what I sent and I still don’t have that confidence with extended character sets. > > It would be much better for a system like IPA to use two- or three-letter combinations from the basic ASCII set. That might create some confusion if laymen misinterpret the pronunciation by making incorrect assumptions about the formal system, but at least it’s something they could make assumptions about. There’s [SAMPA](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speech_Assessment_Methods_Phonetic_Alphabet), which I do actually see being used here and there in lieu of IPA. [Here’s the chart for English.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speech_Assessment_Methods_Phonetic_Alphabet_chart_for_English) ETA: I see that X-SAMPA has actually been mentioned in the first reply. X-SAMPA is an extended SAMPA set which covers the whole range of IPA. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2016, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ipa-in-the-sdmb/762291/36 "2016-08-10T17:52:47Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > I **strongly** object to the IPA. > > It’s like Esperanto, but much, much worse. It’s an artificial answer to a problem that can be solved by many other means. The idiots who came up with the system were lucky that stupidity was not a crime, because they had lethal levels of stupidity. The only other way to solve the problem, as far as I see it, is audio samples. What is stupid about it? I don’t really see any other way of unambiguously conveying phonemes across the whole spectrum of human languages other than IPA or a system similar to it. Please suggest these “other means” and reasons for why the people who came up with it are “idiots” and the system has “lethal levels of stupidity.” While I give my pronunciations in both IPA and layman’s language, the latter often requires a much more verbose description to try to accurately convey what sounds I am talking about. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2016, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ipa-in-the-sdmb/762291/37 "2016-08-10T17:57:23Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > There’s [SAMPA](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speech_Assessment_Methods_Phonetic_Alphabet), which I do actually see being used here and there in lieu of IPA. [Here’s the chart for English.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speech_Assessment_Methods_Phonetic_Alphabet_chart_for_English) ETA: I see that X-SAMPA has actually been mentioned in the first reply. X-SAMPA is an extended SAMPA set which covers the whole range of IPA. Yeah, that would be preferable. Still some choices for characters I’m not wild about (like dzOI for joy or the use of { or @ for some a sounds), but better. It’s at least something that seems worth learning and using. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2016, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ipa-in-the-sdmb/762291/38 "2016-08-10T18:02:08Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > Yeah, that would be preferable. Still some choices for characters I’m not wild about (like dzOI for joy It’s dZOI (capital “Z.”) That looks pretty logical to me. It’s “d” + “zh” (the “j” sound in English is “dzh”), followed by “OI”, the spelling for the “oy” diphthong that people completely unfamiliar with SAMPA would be able to figure out. ETA: I suppose it also may be more intuitive for me as the English “j” sound is often represented as a “d” + “zh” sound in other languages. For example, Hungarian it’s “dzs.” Polish, it’s “dż” (or similar.) German is “dsh.” Etc. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2016, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ipa-in-the-sdmb/762291/39 "2016-08-10T18:46:09Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > followed by “OI”, the spelling for the “oy” diphthong that people completely unfamiliar with SAMPA would be able to figure out. I should amend this to say “English speakers” rather than “people” unfamiliar with SAMPA should be able to intuitively realize “OI” as the diphthong represented by the “oy” in “joy.” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2016, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ipa-in-the-sdmb/762291/40 "2016-08-10T18:57:54Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > I **strongly** object to the IPA. > > It’s like Esperanto, but much, much worse. It’s an artificial answer to a problem that can be solved by many other means. The idiots who came up with the system were lucky that stupidity was not a crime, because they had lethal levels of stupidity. I concur. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ipa-in-the-sdmb/762291.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ipa-in-the-sdmb/762291.md?page=3)