The gerrymandering finished by the time the IRA started its campaign in the 70s/80s of murdering innocent people - not that it really matters. But let’s say it’s still 1956 or 66. Please explain how you can justify murdering women and children in Manchester going shopping? Shooting a census collector in Belfast?
There is no justification. It was wrong. End of story. They should admit it. They could have had the moral high ground all along, but they preferred killing.
I certainly couldn’t justify murdering anyone. I wouldn’t even attempt to. I was simply pointing out that there was far from a lack of democratic representation in Northern Ireland.
Because a group with a political mandate determined democratically have followed certain ‘rules’. One of these is that the people who elected the leaders who command the armed forces ultimately are responsible for their actions. Terrorist organisations admit to no such responsibility and hold themselves to be accountable to no-one but themselves.
Yes, an atrocity is an atrocity, but the examples you gave were military actions on people who, rightly or wrongly, had to be held responsible for the actions of their armies. This is one of the responsibilities of living in a democracy. You vote for war; you accept the consequencies may include you.
The IRA, however, wished to hold the British public responsible not for a war, but for maintaining a rule of law within their own country (NI being a part of the UK) supported by the vast majority of the same country (NI included), while at the same time not being accountable themselves in the anyway. That’s terrorism.
I’m not saying there were not injustices in NI, or that the history of British actions within Ireland isn’t a catalogue of shame. But that the vast majority of the IRA’s actions were terrorist actions without justification. Their apology addressed only half of this and attempts to either avoid or re-write some of the ugly truths.
Well, the argument would be that the targets weren’t civilians but the British economic infrastructure; that warnings were phoned in and that the civilian deaths, though perhaps unavoidable, were not specifically part of the plan. I know how lame that sounds but you have to understand that most people in the republican movement really believe this.
Likewise, Futile Gesture, when you say the IRA weren’t holding the British government responsible for a “war”, you’re simply defining the nature of the conflict differently. To republicans, it was a war, and the British were the aggressors.
I think you’re engaging in a bit of rationalising here. Accountability is desirable as an end in itself, of course, but do you really believe it makes the deaths of innocent people any less horrible?
If the loyalists were correct and the IRA really were backed by the Irish government - even (let’s imagine) openly so, to the point where the Irish electorate could hold them responsible for their actions - would you really find Enniskillen or Kingsmills somehow more palatable? God knows I don’t think Bloody Sunday was “better” than Dublin-Monaghan just because the killers were (thereoretically) accountable to someone other than themselves.
This may sound perfect and correct but it will never happen.
The IRA will never admit that they were unjustified. No matter now you or I look at things it doesn’t matter. They in their opinion fought a war. They did things that they didn’t want to do but felt pushed into them. You may balk at such things but again that doesn’t matter. They are the people that matter in this situation.
All sides in this Rep., Loy., Nat., Uni., or just outsiders looking at it can and are arguing about the rights and wrongs till hell freezes over. Nothing will change. The IRA will still be right in some peoples eyes, somewhat right in others and murdering bastards to the majority.
What we are seeing is a shift in the republican mindset. Things are cooling down. Republicans are doing things that a few years ago owould have got them shot by their own side. Alex Maskey laying flowers at the rememberance cenitaf was a major movement, actually arguably bigger than this statement. These things should be used to push the IRA into a place where they can’t come out of ie. A official END to the struggle/War/whatever the hell you want to call it.
you may be 100% correct in saying "It was wrong. End of story. They should admit it. " but to them you are the one that is wrong and they are as sure about it as you are.
[aside]Kevin Myers shook hands with Maskey!!! And Maskey shook hands back, without bursting into flames.[/aside]
Was it the real Kevin Myers? Are you sure? maybe he’s hiring doppelgangers.
Yoji is correct, and it shows just how important this apology was. It may not have been everything it shoud have been, but the fact that they are saying this is an indication that it is coming to an end.
remembrance cenotaph BTW 