# Iran agreement and it's "spirit" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 21, 2017, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-agreement-and-its-spirit/796900 "2017-09-21T16:57:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-agreement-and-its-spirit/796900/1 "2017-09-21T16:57:27Z")
This morning on NPR they were discussing the Iran agreement. I can’t remember who (an administration official, I think) said something to the effect of “Well, they may be complying withe the agreement, technically, but not the spirit of the agreement.” He/she then used this as a reason for the U.S. to withdraw from the agreement. Huh? Aren’t these agreements all about the technicalities? Its like saying “You’ve met all the terms of the contract but I’m not paying you because I don’t like the outcome. Actually, I don’t like the contract, either”. Sounds to me like a pretty weak argument. How, exactly, is Iran not complying with the spirit of the agreement? What is the spirit of it , anyway? Finally, how, specifically, is this “the worst agreement the U.S. has ever entered into”? ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-agreement-and-its-spirit/796900/2 "2017-09-21T17:04:33Z")
Its the worst agreement the United States ever entered into because Donald Trumps says it is, and he knows more about agreements than anyone in the history of the United States. Or in other words, this is just a hyperbolic white house talking point with nothing to back it up that can be largely ignored. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-agreement-and-its-spirit/796900/3 "2017-09-21T17:09:27Z")
You’re asking for specifics, but I didn’t think that the specifics of the agreement were ever made public. Perhaps I missed them. Anyone know? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-agreement-and-its-spirit/796900/4 "2017-09-21T17:11:21Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You’re asking for specifics, but I didn’t think that the specifics of the agreement were ever made public. Perhaps I missed them. Anyone know? A lot of the details are public: > **[Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Comprehensive_Plan_of_Action#Summary_of_provisions)** > > Withdrawn > The Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action (JCPOA; Persian: برنامه جامع اقدام مشترک, romanized: barnāmeye jāme'e eqdāme moshtarak (برجام, BARJAM)), commonly known as the Iran nuclear deal or Iran deal, is an agreement on the Iranian nuclear program reached in Vienna on 14 July 2015, between Iran and the P5+1 (the five permanent members of the United Nations Security Council—China, France, Russia, the United Kingdom, United States—plus Germany)\[a\] together with the European Union. > Forma... Very rough summary: Iran must drastically reduce its nuclear materials (~98% are gone), and will have two (I think it’s just two – could be three or four) peaceful (i.e. energy-producing and research, not weapons-producing) nuclear facilities. There will have oversight of Iran’s entire nuclear supply chain, and 24/7 access to the declared peaceful nuclear facilities, along with the power to inspect any other facility they suspect as long as they give notice (subject to arbitration if Iran doesn’t want them to see a certain facility). ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-agreement-and-its-spirit/796900/5 "2017-09-21T17:16:56Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There will have oversight of Iran’s entire nuclear supply chain This should read “The IAEA will have oversight…” ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-agreement-and-its-spirit/796900/6 "2017-09-21T17:24:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This should read “The IAEA will have oversight…” It seems that the IAEA doesn’t have a very good track record of detecting clandestine nuclear programs. Maybe we can put Mossad in charge of the inspections? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2017, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-agreement-and-its-spirit/796900/7 "2017-09-21T17:56:25Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It seems that the IAEA doesn’t have a very good track record of detecting clandestine nuclear programs. Who do you think discovered North Korea’s clandestine nuclear weapons program in the 1990s? Hans Blix and the IAEA. And here is the full text of the JCPOA: [https://www.state.gov/e/eb/tfs/spi/iran/jcpoa/](https://www.state.gov/e/eb/tfs/spi/iran/jcpoa/) ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2017, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-agreement-and-its-spirit/796900/8 "2017-09-22T07:31:41Z")
Iran is in full compliance with the deal. The deal is very specifically about Iran’s use of nuclear power - _and nothing else_. So while both parties may well have hoped that the deal would also pave the way for improvements in other areas, that all fell outside of the deal itself, and had to be dealt with and negotiated separately (if at all). The Americans could go on supporting the Saudi war in Yemen, the Iranians could go on supporting Hezbollah, and both parties could go on meddling to their heart’s content in Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan and beyond. The deal was meant to change _one thing_, and one thing only - and that it did. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2017, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-agreement-and-its-spirit/796900/9 "2017-09-22T12:42:06Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It seems that the IAEA doesn’t have a very good track record of detecting clandestine nuclear programs. What makes you say this? Can you link to a Wikipedia page or something? What do you think would be a better deal? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2017, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-agreement-and-its-spirit/796900/10 "2017-09-22T16:00:11Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It seems that the IAEA doesn’t have a very good track record of detecting clandestine nuclear programs. Maybe we can put Mossad in charge of the inspections? And you think Iran would agree to this? The fact is that if the United States pulls out of the agreement, the other signatories won’t follow suit. So Russia, China, France, the UK, and the rest of the EU won’t reinstate sanctions. And so what happens then? No more nuclear inspections, Iran is free from sanctions. Wow, great move, you just freed Iran to start up their nuclear weapons program again. There is no evidence right now that Iran is cheating on the agreement, just a “feeling” that they must be cheating because it’s Iran so no evidence is needed–hey, the smoking gun might be a mushroom cloud! Except how exactly does the United States unilaterally pulling out of the agreement stop the Iranian nuclear program? We need Russia and China and Europe on our side as well. Remember our new friends the Russians? They’re not going to cut off trade with Iran just because we do. We can’t rip up the agreement and go back to the day before the agreement was signed, where all the outside powers had sanctions on Iran. We go back to nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2017, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-agreement-and-its-spirit/796900/11 "2017-09-22T17:11:48Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It seems that the IAEA doesn’t have a very good track record of detecting clandestine nuclear programs. Maybe we can put Mossad in charge of the inspections? Considering that part of Mossad’s remit is protecting the world’s largest clandestine nuclear weapons program, you might get a few raised eyebrows at that. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2017, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-agreement-and-its-spirit/796900/12 "2017-09-22T18:09:28Z")
> [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > What makes you say this? Can you link to a Wikipedia page or something? > > What do you think would be a better deal? > **[Operation Outside the Box](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Orchard#Initial_scepticism_about_the_US_and_Israeli_claims)** > > Hezbollah–Israel conflict > Gaza–Israel conflict > Iran–Israel conflict during the Syrian civil war > **[Libya and weapons of mass destruction](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libya_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction#Nuclear_program)** > > Libya pursued programs to develop or acquire weapons of mass destruction from when Muammar Gaddafi seized control of Libya in 1969 until he announced on 19 December 2003 that Libya would voluntarily eliminate all materials, equipment and programs that could lead to internationally proscribed weapons. This included weapons of mass destruction (nuclear, chemical and biological weapons) and long-range ballistic missiles. > Libya under King Idris signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) in 19... ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2017, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-agreement-and-its-spirit/796900/13 "2017-09-22T18:15:05Z")
Even assuming that those sources are evidence the IAEA is bad at detecting clandestine nuclear programs, both of those examples are in countries that were not under inspection regimes. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2017, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-agreement-and-its-spirit/796900/14 "2017-09-23T10:50:39Z")
From _[The New Yorker](https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/did-trump-just-make-iran-more-popular)_: > [@](#): > > Trump’s conflict with Iran boils down to differing interpretations of the second sentence in the preface to the deal—which is to say, it is over eighteen words in a document totalling a hundred and fifty-nine pages. That sentence says that the six major powers and Iran “anticipate that full implementation of this JCPOA will positively contribute to regional and international peace and security.” The Trump Administration charges that Iran has repeatedly violated this sentence in the accord—and, thus, the whole deal. > > “Regrettably, since the agreement was confirmed, we have seen anything but a more peaceful, stable region,” Tillerson said, on Wednesday. “The technical aspects” may have been honored by Tehran, he said, “but, in the broader context, the aspiration has not.” Absolutely laughable. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2017, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-agreement-and-its-spirit/796900/15 "2017-09-23T11:09:41Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Even assuming that those sources are evidence the IAEA is bad at detecting clandestine nuclear programs, both of those examples are in countries that were not under inspection regimes. it is just part of the extreme right american fantasizing using the israelis as their fetish fantasy doll. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2017, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-agreement-and-its-spirit/796900/16 "2017-09-23T11:42:46Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > [Operation Outside the Box - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Orchard#Initial_scepticism_about_the_US_and_Israeli_claims) > > [Libya and weapons of mass destruction - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libya_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction#Nuclear_program) Shall we compare this list to the US detecting clandestine nuclear programs that didn’t exist? ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2017, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-agreement-and-its-spirit/796900/17 "2017-09-23T15:28:44Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > [Operation Outside the Box - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Orchard#Initial_scepticism_about_the_US_and_Israeli_claims) > > [Libya and weapons of mass destruction - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libya_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction#Nuclear_program) Thanks. I missed those when they went by. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2017, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-agreement-and-its-spirit/796900/18 "2017-09-23T15:29:48Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Shall we compare this list to the US detecting clandestine nuclear programs that didn’t exist? Why not? It could be illuminating. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2017, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-agreement-and-its-spirit/796900/19 "2017-09-23T18:21:35Z")
What a lot of people miss in this is that it isn’t about us “allowing” Iran or North Korea to have nukes. Any country that wants nukes long enough is going to get them. You’d think that folks who think that every nutjob and his brother should have guns would get this. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2017, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-agreement-and-its-spirit/796900/20 "2017-09-24T12:06:02Z")
> [@](#): > > “Regrettably, since the agreement was confirmed, we have seen anything but a more peaceful, stable region,” Tillerson said, on Wednesday. “The technical aspects” may have been honored by Tehran, he said, “but, in the broader context, the aspiration has not.” The underlying problem is of course that Iran, or North Korea, or anyone else who wants to go down this road, can make the same accusation, with some justice, against the existing nuclear powers in relation to their commitment in Article VI of Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty to “pursue negotiations in good faith on effective measures relating to cessation of the nuclear arms race at an early date and to nuclear disarmament, and on a Treaty on general and complete disarmament under strict and effective international control”. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-agreement-and-its-spirit/796900.md?page=2)