# Iran and WMD - does this sound familiar? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 14, 2006, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-and-wmd-does-this-sound-familiar/372688 "2006-09-14T15:11:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BJMoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@BJMoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BJMoose)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2006, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-and-wmd-does-this-sound-familiar/372688/21 "2006-09-14T17:12:42Z")
Actually, **Lemur866** , we won the war. What we’re doing now is keeping a lid on the pressure cooker of anarchy that will break out as the various factions try to claw their way to the top (which is why I think an “exit strategy” is pointless; what will happen will happen, no matter when we pull out; might as well bug out now and let the civil war begin). Though I dearly hope I am wrong, I have this wretched gut feeling that about December, 2008, a lame-duck Bush administration will invade Iran, giving the neocons their long-desired buttkicking of Iran without having to slog through the messy details of the aftermath. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2006, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-and-wmd-does-this-sound-familiar/372688/22 "2006-09-14T17:13:50Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Do you think the majority of the citizens are itching to invade Iran now [/quote] I shouldn’t say “itching,” because it’s a different climate now, but I would say the majority of our fellow citizens would be OK with it. > [@](#): > > and that Congress would approve an authorization for Bush to do it? Bingo. They wouldn’t and won’t. Oh, and as for the action, looks like elucidator just put a Franklin on “invade.” Sucker bet, if you ask me … ---
**Author:** ![guppy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7feea3/32.png) [@guppy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guppy)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2006, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-and-wmd-does-this-sound-familiar/372688/23 "2006-09-14T17:20:40Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] No, Bush did not invade Iraq against the will of the American people. Maybe you’ve forgotten, but Congress approved it and the American people SUPPORTED it. Yeah, Bush lied, yadda yadda yadda. All that would be moot if only we had succeeded, installed an Iraqi government that could keep a lid on the country, and been able to go home. [/QUOTE] Most Americans during this time thought Iraq was behind the 9-11 attacks because Bush Co. told them so. I would never call him adictator; but I would say he is Machiavellian, dishonest, unethical, immoral etc… Now they have lost credibility, go figure. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2006, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-and-wmd-does-this-sound-familiar/372688/24 "2006-09-14T17:38:01Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] But we’re not going to invade Iran, and if anyone thinks we are then I have a standing offer to put some action on that. Does anyone want to take the bet now? [/QUOTE] How would your bet look if the US was hit again by terrorists? I agree that at the moment they couldn’t get it authorised but let’s see what happens in the future. IMO a part of the reason the support was there for Iraq was because in the climate of the time it would have been political suicide for a politician not to go with the War. How many voted against again? One IIRC. The media and the administration were playing hardball back then. They would have landed on anyone who disagreed from a height. That attitude is somewhat changed now, not by much IMO but enough for the support not to be there. If the US gets hit again though, all bets are off. So to speak. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2006, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-and-wmd-does-this-sound-familiar/372688/25 "2006-09-14T17:46:35Z")
[QUOTE=guppy] Most Americans during this time thought Iraq was behind the 9-11 attacks because Bush Co. told them so. I would never call him adictator; but I would say he is Machiavellian, dishonest, unethical, immoral etc… Now they have lost credibility, go figure. [/QUOTE] First off, I’ll nitpick the “Most”. Some, sure. If you poll average people and ask them questions some of them answer seemingly at random. Think how dumb the average person is, then realize half the people are dumber than that. As for the other comment: exactly. He’s “lost credibility”! Due to his previous lies! Shocking! Only an idiot would believe that the same George Bush who got us mired in Iraq, with his credibility shot and his approval ratings in the toilet could just get on TV and say “Iran is building nuclear weapons, the invasion is starting tomorrow.” See, if he was popular and beloved, with a record as Commander-in-Chief of successfully kicking the ass of every other third world country he’d invaded it would be a different story. But he isn’t and he doesn’t so it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2006, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-and-wmd-does-this-sound-familiar/372688/26 "2006-09-14T18:19:04Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] I know how it’s _supposed_ to work, and I know how it’s been working lately. They frequently don’t equate. Let’s say Bush signs off on a plan to bomb Iran, relying on his authority as ‘unitary executive.’ Who exactly is supposed to stop it from happening, and how? [/QUOTE] How is it supposed to work? If we’re talking about a WMD surgical air strike against Iran, then Bush doesn’t need no stinkin’ unitary executive theory to do that. Dont’ you remember [Operation Desert Fox.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Desert_Fox)? > [@](#): > > Operation Desert Fox was the military codename for a major four-day bombing campaign on Iraqi targets from December 16-December 19, 1998 by the United States and United Kingdom. These strikes were undertaken in response to Iraq’s continued failure to comply with United Nations Security Council resolutions as well as their interference with United Nations Special Commission inspectors. And no, this isn’t a _tu quoque_. It’s just an example of what many presidents have done w/o authorization from Congress (although usually after consulting Congressional leaders in secret). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2006, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-and-wmd-does-this-sound-familiar/372688/27 "2006-09-14T18:27:59Z")
[QUOTE=El Cid Viscoso] I shouldn’t say “itching,” because it’s a different climate now, but I would say the majority of our fellow citizens would be OK with it. [/QUOTE] Invade or make a few “surgical” air strikes? I think Americans would be OK with the latter, but not the former. Not while the majority wants us out of Iraq. Do you have some poll info or something that leads you to your conclusion? ---
**Author:** ![guppy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7feea3/32.png) [@guppy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guppy)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2006, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-and-wmd-does-this-sound-familiar/372688/28 "2006-09-14T18:36:00Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] Think how dumb the average person is, then realize half the people are dumber than that. [/QUOTE] Just to let you know, I am going to start using this phrase in future conversations. I’d ask you for permission to use it, but either way this phrase is going to enter my lexicon, I have no choice. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2006, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-and-wmd-does-this-sound-familiar/372688/29 "2006-09-14T18:44:01Z")
[QUOTE=guppy] Just to let you know, I am going to start using this phrase in future conversations. I’d ask you for permission to use it, but either way this phrase is going to enter my lexicon, I have no choice. 😃 [/QUOTE] I didn’t make up the line and I have no idea where it comes from. So attribute it to…Mark Twain. Or Will Rogers. Whichever. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2006, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-and-wmd-does-this-sound-familiar/372688/30 "2006-09-14T18:48:53Z")
Yup. We’re pretty much fucked. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2006, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-and-wmd-does-this-sound-familiar/372688/31 "2006-09-14T18:50:46Z")
[QUOTE=Tuckerfan] Yup. We’re pretty much fucked. [/QUOTE] Oh yeah? Well why don’t you just start a Pit thread along those lines and see what kind of response you get! ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2006, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-and-wmd-does-this-sound-familiar/372688/32 "2006-09-14T18:53:55Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] How is it supposed to work? If we’re talking about a WMD surgical air strike against Iran, then Bush doesn’t need no stinkin’ unitary executive theory to do that. Dont’ you remember [Operation Desert Fox.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Desert_Fox)? And no, this isn’t a _tu quoque_. It’s just an example of what many presidents have done w/o authorization from Congress (although usually after consulting Congressional leaders in secret). [/QUOTE] Although to be fair, a bombing of Iraq was a different story than bombing against any other country, since Clinton arguably had previous congressional and UN authorization to use force against Iraq if they violated the cease-fire that ended Gulf War I. That kind of action, if taken against any other country than Iraq, would have caused quite a lot of controversy. Against Saddam, not so much, we’d been bombing Iraq on and off ever since Kuwait. We haven’t conducted any overt military operations against Iran since the hostage rescue attempt. But that might be another example of the President ordering military action without a full congressional vote. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2006, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-and-wmd-does-this-sound-familiar/372688/33 "2006-09-14T18:57:16Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Oh yeah? Well why don’t you just start a Pit thread along those lines and see what kind of response you get! [/QUOTE] Hey! That’s a pretty good idea! As a matter, of fact, it’s _such_ a good idea, I’ll use a time machine and go back and start the thread a couple of days ago, so it’ll look like it was _my_ idea! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2006, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-and-wmd-does-this-sound-familiar/372688/34 "2006-09-14T18:59:01Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] I hope you realize that GWB \*did \* get Congressional approval of that “whim”. [/QUOTE] It’s been a long 3 years, and I was disappointed at the Congressional action at the time. But my recollection was that the Congressional authorization was along the lines of “use force if other efforts fail.” And my recollection was that no other efforts were attempted other than issuance of ultimatums, followed by the mobilization of troops. So yeah, a majority of Congress inexcusably got on board for this merry little adventure, but can anyone seriously question that Bush and a small coterie of pals were driving the damn bus wherever they damn well pleased? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2006, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-and-wmd-does-this-sound-familiar/372688/35 "2006-09-14T19:32:21Z")
[QUOTE=Dinsdale] It’s been a long 3 years, and I was disappointed at the Congressional action at the time. But my recollection was that the Congressional authorization was along the lines of “use force if other efforts fail.” And my recollection was that no other efforts were attempted other than issuance of ultimatums, followed by the mobilization of troops. So yeah, a majority of Congress inexcusably got on board for this merry little adventure, but can anyone seriously question that Bush and a small coterie of pals were driving the damn bus wherever they damn well pleased? [/QUOTE] It’s true that the Iraq AUMF was written so that the military option was available if diplomatic methods failed. But it was also written such that Bush was the sole determining party wrt failure of said diplomatic measures. Bush was indeed the driver of the bus-- this is his deal. But, he could not and would not have invaded w/o approval from Congress. They wrote him a blank check and he cashed it. **Lemur** : It’s certainly true that Iraq was a special case, but don’t be fooled-- there was still plenty of controversy about what Clinton did. Much of it was probably politically motivated, but so what? And you seem to have forgotten Reagan’s bombing of Lybia. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2006, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-and-wmd-does-this-sound-familiar/372688/36 "2006-09-14T19:37:33Z")
**John** - what **Lemur** said. **Lemur** - So, who _would_ stop Bush from _a-bomb-bomb-bomb, bomb-bomb-Iran_? [QUOTE=Tuckerfan] Hey! That’s a pretty good idea! As a matter, of fact, it’s _such_ a good idea, I’ll use a time machine and go back and start the thread a couple of days ago, so it’ll look like it was _my_ idea! 😃 [/QUOTE] Yeah, and thanks a bunch for the earworm. Every time I see it, I hear Terence and Philip from _South Park_ singing, _Looks like we may be out of luck, tomorrow night we’re pretty fucked!_ ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2006, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-and-wmd-does-this-sound-familiar/372688/37 "2006-09-14T19:41:49Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] They wrote him a blank check and he cashed it. [/QUOTE] but no one could have _foreseen_ he’d cash the blank check… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2006, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-and-wmd-does-this-sound-familiar/372688/38 "2006-09-14T19:42:28Z")
**Lemur** : Let’s also not forget [Operation Allied Force](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Allied_Force)– no Congressional approval their either. The House and Senate had passed some non-binding resolutions, but those didn’t give the president any additional authority. IOW, they were not an AUMF. > [@](#): > > Operation Allied Force aka Kosovo-NATO War was NATO’s military operation against Federal Republic of Yugoslavia that lasted from 24 March to 11 June 1999 and is considered a major part of Kosovo War. It was only the second major combat operation in NATO’s history, following the September 1995 Operation Deliberate Force in Bosnia and Herzegovina. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2006, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-and-wmd-does-this-sound-familiar/372688/39 "2006-09-14T19:44:05Z")
[QUOTE=wring] but no one could have _foreseen_ he’d cash the blank check… [/QUOTE] You’re kidding, right? Is that like _no one could have predicted that \_? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2006, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-and-wmd-does-this-sound-familiar/372688/40 "2006-09-14T19:46:56Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] **John** - what **Lemur** said. \* [/QUOTE] What he said did not refute my claim, and note the other instances. Tell us, RTF, how is it supposed to work? BTW, if you think Clinton still had authorization to bomb Iraq from Congress and the UN Security council, then Bush had that same authority to _invade_ Iraq. So, no, I don’t believe for a second that you agree with **Lemur**. You’re just dodging the question. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-and-wmd-does-this-sound-familiar/372688.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-and-wmd-does-this-sound-familiar/372688.md?page=3)