# Iran: More sanctions now or wait? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 19, 2013, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300 "2013-11-19T22:23:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/181 "2013-12-02T16:47:19Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Then you’re just poisoning the well, which is a equally poor form of argument that should be dropped as well. I support the negotiations and the deal and think its best to trust the Iranians but verify - similar to a Reagan motto - rather than ridiculing the West for being stupid dogs having a bone thrown at them by the slippery rulers of Iran. If standing up for what I believe and making valid arguments to support it is poisoning the well then I can’t help that. If Mace opposes military strikes against Iran as he says he does but is resigned to the eventuality that Iran will obtain nuclear weapons using negotiations to dupe the West to by the time they need - then once again the Mace minority view that Iran will get Nukes but nothing can be done about it, becomes the best path for the neocons to get Iran bombed as they want. I say the best path forward is to have some faith in our leaders and the worlds leaders through the UN to get this resolved without war. This latest deal is good, so why not just say so? Discussing what’s wrong with my viewpoint and what’s right about Mace’s is not a poisoned well in my mind. It is the crux of what’s at stake. I think Mace’s view is wrong and detrimental to s peaceful diplomatic solution to the matter. There’s no need to bring up grudges etc. There is a real argument here. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/182 "2013-12-02T17:09:44Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > In exchange for the assurance that they would not be attacked. I don’t understand what you mean… are you talking about the recent agreement? Iran has been an NPT signatory for nearly half a century. > [@](#): > > No, I am dismissing the American propaganda which blames its victims to justify its crimes. The fact is that in the history of USA-Iran relations the USA is the guilty party and yet American propaganda make them out to be the villains. It is all made up shit just like it was when America attacked Iraq or many other countries it has attacked without any other reason than “we want to steal their shit”. Years later historians recognize the truth but by then it is too late as the deed has been done. America has a long history of spoiling for fights and this is just one more case. You might want to tell Russia and China that they are also oppressing Iran, because they are also full parties to the agreement with Iran that was just recently signed. Plus the 28 members of the EU who are currently participating in sanctions against Iran, I’m sure that some countries - like Sweden, Spain, France, Italy, Greece and others – you know, the typical American stooges in Europe – aren’t aware of how they are on the wrong side. And you should probably email the UN Secretary General and tell him to get off the back of Iran, since the UN has been victimizing Iran for the last seven years as it has passed nearly a dozen resolutions with little to no opposition that take Iran to task for its nuclear activities. Honestly, the idea that Iran’s lengthy and atrocious record of sponsoring international terrorism is basically America’s fault is just absurd. There’s plenty of countries that have been America’s opponents over the last half century who don’t make a practice of going around supporting groups that indiscriminately murder innocent civilians in other countries – Russia, China, Vietnam among them, for starters. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/183 "2013-12-02T17:12:23Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > If standing up for what I believe and making valid arguments to support it is poisoning the well then I can’t help that. Yes, you can, and poisoning the well is one of the most common ways to make an INvalid argument. To make valid arguments, simply stop using rhetorical devices that are the very definition of bad arguments. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/184 "2013-12-02T17:33:53Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > As the result of the collapse of a nation? That’s ridiculous; you get something like Somalia from that, not a free society. Or something like post-invasion Iraq, but three-four times as big and every bit as volatile. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/185 "2013-12-02T19:40:51Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Honestly, the idea that Iran’s lengthy and atrocious record of sponsoring international terrorism is basically America’s fault is just absurd. There’s plenty of countries that have been America’s opponents over the last half century who don’t make a practice of going around supporting groups that indiscriminately murder innocent civilians in other countries – Russia, China, Vietnam among them, for starters. No, “Iran’s lengthy and atrocious record of sponsoring international terrorism” is not basically America’s fault, it is basically a myth disseminated by America. Look I am not saying I like everything Iran does but, let’s get real, America is much more a “sponsor of terrorism” but it is just conveniently overlooked. Iran and Iranians do not “hate our freedoms” as some retard put it and other retards like to believe, what they hate is what we have done to them over the decades and what we continue to do to them. The America-hating ayatollah regime is a direct product and consequence of America’s puppet, the Sha, and his regime of terror. How can anyone be surprised by that? Just like the Castro regime in Cuba is a direct consequence of American puppet regimes in Cuba during the first half of the 20th century. I do not like that regime, I think it is terrible, but it is a reaction to American imperialism. Similarly, I do not like the Iranian regime but that does not mean they do not have a point when they defend themselves from American aggression. America likes to claim UN support or of other countries… when it suits them but it ignores the UN and any treaties when it suits them. I would not be so cynical if the USA respected treaties and international decisions but if the USA can do as it pleases when it is in their interests then they should not complain if other countries do the same. America perpetrates and supports all sorts of acts against the UN and against its own treaties and stated principles. I do not like the situation, I do not like what is going on, but the blame is not only on Iran. They have suffered a long history of aggressions from the west. America sponsored Iraq in a war against Iran which caused hundreds of thousands of dead. Any “terrorism” from Iran pales in comparison to this and yet we conveniently ignore it. Now they are being surrounded by countries occupied by America. Look how America reacted to missiles in Cuba. Iran has much more reason to be concerned. They have seen their neighbors invaded on bullshit reasons and they know the only way to be secure is to have nuclear weapons. If they have to lie to get them then that is what they will do. And I don’t blame them. They would be stupid to trust America. Fool me once … and all that. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/186 "2013-12-02T22:45:11Z")
Actually, most Iranians seem to like the US quite a bit. Do you have anything to say about the actual debate here, **Sailor**? If we agree that the US is the worstest country that ever existed, what do you think of the current strategy being undertaken by the P5 + 1 (five permanent UNSC members plus Germany)? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/187 "2013-12-02T23:28:23Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > No, “Iran’s lengthy and atrocious record of sponsoring international terrorism” is not basically America’s fault, it is basically a myth disseminated by America. Doesn’t Hezbollah count as international terrorism? And doesn’t Iran sponsor them, and even, to some extent, pull their strings? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/188 "2013-12-02T23:30:23Z")
Yes, I think if **sailor** were to open a thread to discuss why Iran is a victim of American foreign policy (like Reagan and Oliver North selling Iran arms; what an unspeakable act of aggression on the part of the West against Iran!), we could actually speak better to the nuclear agreement in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/189 "2013-12-02T23:33:58Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I am not saying Mace is a neocon. You are wrong. Mace makes a neocon argument on Iran and Mace is denying that the argument is not a neocon argument. > > I believe it is detrimental to diplomatic efforts to declare that Iran is only throwing the West a bone in negotiations. That is a neocon ploy to ridicule and disrupt the West’s attempts at gaining a diplomatic solution to the nuclear issue with regard to Iran. > > And Mace has expressed it here. **ENOUGH!** Your persistent, wrong-headed attacks on **John Mace** over an argument that you are alone in the world in believing you won, and your perseveration over a single post he made that you have either misunderstood or deliberately misconstrued has gone on too long. It is very nearly a classic case of stalking. If you bring this stuff up, again, you will be Warned and with one suspension already on your record, that could result in you being banned. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/190 "2013-12-02T23:41:11Z")
**sailor** , your attempt to turn this thread into a discussion of the evil of the U.S. is out of line. Go open a new thread if you want to discuss it. Do not further hijack this thread. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/191 "2013-12-03T01:49:42Z")
A few things. Khamenei has made it quite clear that he’s against he stockpiling and use of nuclear weapons and has issued a fatwah against it. I know such religious decrees seem silly to us, but the Mullahs take them very seriously and don’t just cavalierly ignore them. Moreover Khamenei is not insane, nor, despite what Sailor claims is he “America hating”(I’m wondering if Sailor may have confused him with Khomeini) though if I had my way he’d be kicked out quick. Also, imposing more sanctions will strengthen the hardcore zealots in Iran and hurt the moderates like Rouhani who have the support of the majority. I don’t want an Ahmadinejad clone replacing Rouhani and not imposing further sanctions is a good way to help prevent this. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/192 "2013-12-03T02:01:00Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > As the result of the collapse of a nation? That’s ridiculous; you get something like Somalia from that, not a free society. Try something that hits closer to home: Iraq, Afghanistan & Libya. “Thanks” to American nation-building Somalia has nothing on them. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/193 "2013-12-03T02:04:59Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Or something like post-invasion Iraq, but three-four times as big and every bit as volatile. Iran iisn’t an artificial clusterfuck of dissimilar cultures forced together. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/194 "2013-12-03T03:05:35Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Iran iisn’t an artificial clusterfuck of dissimilar cultures forced together. Actually, it is. Iran was never a democracy where everyone felt equally represented. Keep in mind that Iran is made up of Persians (contrary to popular belief, barely a majority) with a large minority of Azeris and Kurds, plus lesser minorities of Belochs, Arabs (yes, Arabs), and quite a few others. We really don’t know what would happen if freedom and democracy broke out. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/195 "2013-12-03T03:10:07Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Yes, you can, and poisoning the well is one of the most common ways to make an INvalid argument. To make valid arguments, simply stop using rhetorical devices that are the very definition of bad arguments. Lets forget about any other poster. I am asking you about this poisoning the well stuff because: I have deliberately and strictly tried my best to stick to the “arguments” that are being expressed on this topic. I have contested an argument being made that is expressly on this topic. And nothing I am writing has anything to do with anything else that has gone on before. I sincerely don’t see where I have attacked any poster personally or insulted anyone on this thread. I am attacking/challenging THE argument that the Iranians are throwing a bone to the West. That has to be consistent and on topic with this thread unless I am missing that too. If contesting that argument or point and not the person is a violation this is the first I’ve heard it. A shot was fired at me personally and not at my argument - something about hating Republicans. I am citing Reagan here for God’s sake to trust but verify. So do you disagree that we should trust but verify what the Iranians do. This has nothing to do with anybody or anything else. I’m asking you. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/196 "2013-12-03T03:15:21Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > A few things. > > Khamenei has made it quite clear that he’s against he stockpiling and use of nuclear weapons and has issued a fatwah against it. > > I know such religious decrees seem silly to us, but the Mullahs take them very seriously and don’t just cavalierly ignore them. > > Moreover Khamenei is not insane, nor, despite what Sailor claims is he “America hating”(I’m wondering if Sailor may have confused him with Khomeini) though if I had my way he’d be kicked out quick. > > Also, imposing more sanctions will strengthen the hardcore zealots in Iran and hurt the moderates like Rouhani who have the support of the majority. > > I don’t want an Ahmadinejad clone replacing Rouhani and not imposing further sanctions is a good way to help prevent this. You have a valid point. And what can be wrong with applying the Reagan motto - trust but verify - right now with Rouhani? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/197 "2013-12-03T03:15:23Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Actually, it is. Iran was never a democracy where everyone felt equally represented. Keep in mind that Iran is made up of Persians (contrary to popular belief, barely a majority) with a large minority of Azeris and Kurds, plus lesser minorities of Belochs, Arabs (yes, Arabs), and quite a few others. We really don’t know what would happen if freedom and democracy broke out. See [this map](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Iran_ethnoreligious_distribution_2004.jpg). Many possible lines of fracture. OTOH, while Iraq was a post-WWI creation, all these peoples have been accustomed for centuries to being part of the Persian Empire/Iran. (And its cultural influence spread even further – see [Greater Iran](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Persia).) On the gripping hand, the non-Russian peoples had a long enough time to get used to being part of the Russian Empire/USSR, but it wasn’t enough to keep them around when they got the chance to leave. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/198 "2013-12-03T03:32:33Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > On the gripping hand, 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/199 "2013-12-03T03:36:34Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > So do you disagree that we should trust but verify what the Iranians do. This has nothing to do with anybody or anything else. > > I’m asking you. Yes, we should proceed with the agreement and verify whether the Iranians are holding up their end. I would not use the word “trust” at this stage. There are many people with whom I have little in common with might say the same thing. For example, Code Pink leftists may say the same thing. That doesn’t mean I make Code Pink more credible by agreeing with them. Similarly, just because some neocon and **John Mace** say something similar does not mean that he is endorsing neocons. That’s why your efforts to associate him with them are in error. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/200 "2013-12-03T04:40:03Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > A few things. > > Khamenei has made it quite clear that he’s against he stockpiling and use of nuclear weapons and has issued a fatwah against it. > > I know such religious decrees seem silly to us, but the Mullahs take them very seriously and don’t just cavalierly ignore them. > > Moreover Khamenei is not insane, nor, despite what Sailor claims is he “America hating”(I’m wondering if Sailor may have confused him with Khomeini) though if I had my way he’d be kicked out quick. > > Also, imposing more sanctions will strengthen the hardcore zealots in Iran and hurt the moderates like Rouhani who have the support of the majority. > > I don’t want an Ahmadinejad clone replacing Rouhani and not imposing further sanctions is a good way to help prevent this. Is there such a thing as a moderate or conservative or liberal in Iran? People are elected at the discretion of Khamenei who also has final word on pretty much everything. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300.md?page=11)