# Iran: More sanctions now or wait? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 19, 2013, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300 "2013-11-19T22:23:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2013, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/401 "2013-12-14T03:14:03Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > So, just to be clear, this is not a tightening of sanctions but a commitment to crack down on existing sanctions. If Iran is going to use this excuse to scuttle the talks, then I think this sends a message that they are not serious and are just looking for whatever excuse they can come up with to delay the process. > > Of course, this is a negotiating tactic as old as the books. They need to return home to “consult with higher ups”. We’ll see if they come crawling back to the negotiation table or not. Sanctions are designed to harm them financially. If Obama is “cracking down” on them then he’s actively putting the screws to Iran. It would be like courting the Hispanic vote while vigorously enforcing immigration laws. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2013, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/402 "2013-12-14T03:55:34Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No, it was not clear that Khamenei approved that back in August. > I disagree with them, so no I don’t think they were right. What I think is that this is not a black and white issue and reasonable people can hold different views. I also think a lot of those Senators may know more about this issue than I do, so I’m not ready to presume they are acting out of bad faith. Thanks for a reasonable response. I hold a reasonable view that is different than yours. I believe Americans who support seeking diplomacy with Iran over war, should criticize the US Senators who quickly reacted to moderate motions from Iran with demands for tougher sanctions. I don’t see anything that could be considered reasonably conducive to a peaceful outcome by calling for tougher sanctions so close to Rouhani being elected President. Giving those Senators some slack because they may have more information than the rest of us should not apply here. We all can see the Iranian change and that is what justifies the Senators being criticized in my book. And I certainly trust the UN nuclear inspectors to ferret out the facts rather than a bunch of shoot from the hip Senators who were reluctant to fully test and allow an emerging diplomatic process to take top priority. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2013, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/403 "2013-12-14T04:21:50Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > [Obama decided to crack down on Iran sanctions violators.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/obama-administration-cracks-down-on-iran-sanctions-violators/2013/12/12/c16897ca-634e-11e3-a373-0f9f2d1c2b61_story.html) > > [Iranians Pull Out of Nuke Talks](http://freebeacon.com/iranians-pull-out-of-nuke-talks/) The issue is new sanctions, not the enforcement of existing sanctions, > [@](#): > > However, Carney said that the administration continues to oppose new sanctions. From your cite: > > “Let’s be clear also that we continue to oppose passage of new nuclear-related sanctions,” Carney said. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2013, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/404 "2013-12-14T04:44:14Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > The issue is new sanctions, not the enforcement of existing sanctions, From who’s perspective? If we’re hammering Iran then that would be financially punative. from my earlier cite: \* The enforcement actions against Asian, European and Iranian firms were announced moments before two of the administration’s top experts on Iran appeared before a Senate panel to warn again that the imposition of further sanctions could doom any chance of a final agreement on permanent limits to the country’s nuclear program.\* ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2013, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/405 "2013-12-14T05:14:02Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Sanctions are designed to harm them financially. If Obama is “cracking down” on them then he’s actively putting the screws to Iran. > > It would be like courting the Hispanic vote while vigorously enforcing immigration laws. But if Obama did it, then it’s by definition good. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2013, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/406 "2013-12-14T05:27:17Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But if Obama did it, then it’s by definition good. certainly explains his advance prediction of the results. Interesting political move. Offer them a monetary incentive to do something and then stick it to them after the agreement is signed. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2013, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/407 "2013-12-14T09:24:22Z")
The Iranians already said that if we flip them the bird and talk shit about their mom, they will shut down. Obama doesn’t, but Congress butts its big fat nose into it, threatening to do exactly that. Obama heads that off, but at the price of making tough gestures of enforcing what already is, stressing the nuance of not making _further_ sanctions, just enforcing what’s there already. Since the Iranians were committed to seeing further sanctions as a deal-breaker, the “getting instructions” ploy is the only move they got that _isn’t_ totally shutting down. The sane Iranians that favor negotiations also have people breathing down their necks, people who want this to fail. That ploy keeps alive what slender hopes may yet exist. But if they are required to “come crawling back”, you can bet those hopes slip down to slim and none. Christ becrutched, its the John Bolton Diplomatic Method at work, surprised we aren’t at war with Belgium, Monaco and Upper Volta. Kinda thought this whole diplomacy thing was clearly one of the executive branch things, that the Senate might well be brought in to ratify a completed negotiation, but since when does the Speaker of the House or the Senate Majority Leader take seats at the table? Why would the Iranians negotiate in good faith with Obama if they are offered reason to believe he has not such authority? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2013, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/408 "2013-12-14T11:26:05Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Why would the Iranians negotiate in good faith with Obama if they are offered reason to believe he has not such authority? Exactly. The public antics of about way too many US Senators have weakened the prospects for a diplomatic solution. And to some, not all, that is most likely their objective. Does everyone understand the concept that some of those Senators are paying nothing but ‘lip service’ to support the diplomatic efforts of the White House? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2013, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/409 "2013-12-14T11:29:21Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > certainly explains his advance prediction of the results. > > Interesting political move. Offer them a monetary incentive to do something and then stick it to them after the agreement is signed. From what I read from the link you posted Obama has not violated the terms of the agreement by enforcing existing sanctions. Are you criticizing Obama for enforcing existing sanctions? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2013, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/410 "2013-12-14T11:37:57Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > From who’s perspective? It should be from anyone’s perspective who is following this discussion. The White House is opposed to new sanctions but considers it within the language of the interim agreement to continue enforcement of existing sanctions and that is what they have done and our doing. I believe Obama would choose to lift not all of course but some specific sanctions during the next six months. The grandstanders in Congress have deflated that move with their demands for more and tougher sanctions. If you want better than a 50/50 chance that bombing Iran can be averted by achieving a diplomatic solution then you best get ticked off at that list of Senators who started their handwringing over sanctions last summer and stepped it up again after the interim deal was announced. You seem to be going after Obama for inconsistency or something where no inconsistency exists. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2013, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/411 "2013-12-14T11:59:32Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > The big message here is: what the fuck does it matter what the August letter said? It has been totally surpassed by events that can surely be called cautiously promising: namely, 6 countries and Iran have reached the interim agreement. > > At this point, it wouldn’t matter much if the August letter asked Obama to urinate on an Iranian flag, because it didn’t happen and the situation today is far different than it was in the summer. Can you deny that there is a continuation of message that began with that letter at a time when the Iranians shifted to a position much more moderate than it had preceded the Summer letter and continued with all the public noise and pressure on Obama made by many of the same Senators after the interim deal was announced. Sorry, this should not be seen as separate events, but rather a continuous pattern that, IF YOU DESIRE a diplomatic solution, is wrongheaded no matter from which angle you look at it. All we are saying is give peace a chance… Iranians made a definitive change with the election of Rouhani… give Rohani a chance… And I’m not saying it to you… I’m saying it to any clown who responded to Rouhani’s election with demands for more sanctions. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2013, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/412 "2013-12-14T14:40:05Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The Iranians already said that if we flip them the bird and talk shit about their mom, they will shut down. Obama doesn’t, but Congress butts its big fat nose into it, threatening to do exactly that. Obama heads that off, but at the price of making tough gestures of enforcing what already is, stressing the nuance of not making _further_ sanctions, just enforcing what’s there already. > > Since the Iranians were committed to seeing further sanctions as a deal-breaker, the “getting instructions” ploy is the only move they got that _isn’t_ totally shutting down. The sane Iranians that favor negotiations also have people breathing down their necks, people who want this to fail. That ploy keeps alive what slender hopes may yet exist. But if they are required to “come crawling back”, you can bet those hopes slip down to slim and none. > > Christ becrutched, its the John Bolton Diplomatic Method at work, surprised we aren’t at war with Belgium, Monaco and Upper Volta. > > Kinda thought this whole diplomacy thing was clearly one of the executive branch things, that the Senate might well be brought in to ratify a completed negotiation, but since when does the Speaker of the House or the Senate Majority Leader take seats at the table? Why would the Iranians negotiate in good faith with Obama if they are offered reason to believe he has not such authority? I still think this is just a negotiating tactic by them. They have not cancelled the preliminary agreement, but have suspended talks so they can confer with higher ups. That’s always a problem when the negotiating team is not empowered to make decisions. Oddly, I’m not seeing anything about this story on the NYT website. But there’s also been this recent story, and maybe that is complicating matters: [A Disappearing Spy, and a Scandal at the C.I.A.](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/14/world/middleeast/a-disappearing-american-spy-and-the-cia.html?ref=world&_r=0) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2013, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/413 "2013-12-14T16:15:51Z")
Oddly (or not so oddly), the only source of the Iranians pulling out of talks seems to be “The Washington Free Beacon”. Can’t find anything in the lamestream media about it. Probably a liberal conspiracy to protect Obama. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2013, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/414 "2013-12-14T17:24:53Z")
If the Iranians have been enlisted in that cause, that might be taken as a sort of progress to a rapprochement. After all, his ruthless program to impose _sharia_ law must have earned him some form of approval. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/415 "2013-12-15T02:59:31Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Oddly (or not so oddly), the only source of the Iranians pulling out of talks seems to be “The Washington Free Beacon”. Can’t find anything in the lamestream media about it. Probably a liberal conspiracy to protect Obama. I found it without any difficulty. [Yahoo](http://news.yahoo.com/iran-halts-nuclear-talks-us-blacklist-move-063122680.html) [Reuters](http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/13/us-iran-nuclear-sanctions-idUSBRE9BC0CY20131213) [The Wall Street Journal](http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304202204579255522757386950) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/416 "2013-12-15T03:02:34Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Iranians made a definitive change with the election of Rouhani… give Rohani a chance… And I’m not saying it to you… I’m saying it to any clown who responded to Rouhani’s election with demands for more sanctions. Well President Obama added companies to the sanctions list so how does that work exactly? He negotiated a release of money and then took money from them in the form of sanctions. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/417 "2013-12-15T05:05:10Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Well President Obama added companies to the sanctions list so how does that work exactly? He negotiated a release of money and then took money from them in the form of sanctions. This is from the link you posted: > [@](#): > > A senior U.S. official, in briefing reporters about the measures, sought to distinguish the administration’s efforts to enforce existing sanctions from the attempts by some in Congress to impose additional restrictions on Iran’s battered economy. Obama did not add ‘companies to the sanctions list’ related to any new or more restrictive sanctions. Those companies have been violating the existing sanctions. Obama is doing nothing out of line with the six month interim agreement. the push for new sanctions or new requirements has been shut down for now in a apparent victory for the White House. According to the link you posted: > [@](#): > > In another apparent victory for the administration, a key House Democrat withdrew support for a proposed bipartisan resolution that would have demanded far deeper concessions from Iran, including a dismantling of all its uranium enrichment facilities. Rep. Steny H. Hoyer (Md.), the Democratic whip, decided that the “timing was not right to move forward this week” on such a resolution, spokeswoman Stephanie Young said. > > Hoyer’s withdrawal sharply diminished the chances that the resolution will be put to a vote before the Christmas recess, congressional officials said. > > The enforcement measures announced Thursday by the Treasury Department targeted firms alleged to have assisted Iranian companies by transporting petroleum products or acting as middlemen in transferring payments to Iranian banks — actions that violate economic sanctions enacted over the past two years. Administration officials also blacklisted several Iranian companies involved in the country’s uranium-mining sector. > > A senior U.S. official, in briefing reporters about the measures, sought to distinguish the administration’s efforts to enforce existing sanctions from the attempts by some in Congress to impose additional restrictions on Iran’s battered economy. Your reading of the link you posted is off a bit. Obama didn’t arbitrarily add companies to a new list - promise money and then take money away. I don’t see where you are getting that. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/418 "2013-12-15T06:07:22Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > This is from the link you posted: > > Obama did not add 'companies to the sanctions list… that’s exactly what he did. And it cost Iran money. It doesn’t matter to them that it fell within the parameters of existing sanctions. That you refuse to acknowledge this reality after extolling how crazy it would be to increase the financial burden on Iran is nothing but blind allegiance. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/419 "2013-12-15T07:58:34Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > …It doesn’t matter to them that it fell within the parameters of existing sanctions… Oh, it might. That Obama would even bother to try to soften the blow? And distance himself from those elements of Congress who seem intent on torpedoing any peace process, or threat thereof.? Yes, that might matter quite a bit. If Obama were the puppet of his Zionist masters intent on the destruction of Iran then this was a perfect opportunity to do nothing, to allow the peace process to fail without even getting his own fingerprints on it. But that’s not what happened. It is a slender enough reed, but it is an opportunity and a framework for both sides to pretend that very little has actually happened. Obama offers them the technicality that the deal not to add additional sanctions has been kept, if the Iranians are willing to pretend the same with a straight face. Then Obama can pretend with a straight face that departing the negotiations on the pretense of “consultation” is not a deal breaker either, in fact, a perfectly ordinary checking in with the home office. Is it silly, is it some kind of formal _kabuki_ dramatics, the empty posturing by which nations save their respective faces? Certainly. Keep in mind, if it works, hundreds of thousands of innocent lives may be saved. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/420 "2013-12-15T16:03:23Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Oh, it might. That Obama would even bother to try to soften the blow? And distance himself from those elements of Congress who seem intent on torpedoing any peace process, or threat thereof.? Yes, that might matter quite a bit. Just to be clear, and don’t take this as a defense of this action, but you speak of “those elements” as if it were some minority. In fact, it appears to be the majority. In that case, we generally just speak of “Congress”. You are free to use whatever terms you like, but the careful reader should note the distinction. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300.md?page=22)