# Iran: More sanctions now or wait? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 19, 2013, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300 "2013-11-19T22:23:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/421 "2013-12-15T16:42:29Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > that’s exactly what he did. And it cost Iran money. It doesn’t matter to them that it fell within the parameters of existing sanctions. That you refuse to acknowledge this reality after extolling how crazy it would be to increase the financial burden on Iran is nothing but blind allegiance. You are plainly incorrect. What I said is correct. Here it is again: > [@](#): > > Obama did not add ‘companies to the sanctions list’ related to any new or more restrictive sanctions. Those companies have been violating the existing sanctions. Obama is doing nothing out of line with the six month interim agreement. Obama is not and must not be concerned or submissive to Iranians’ hurt feelings over this action of clamping down on violaters of existing sanctions. Obama is correct to put a stop to those members of Congress who want tougher new sanctions and tougher compliance requirements. Iran could justifiably walk away from new tough demands but Iran would be wrong and unjustified to walk away from the deal because Obama is clamping down on established sanctions being violated by certain companies. You need to see the distinction between old and new. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/422 "2013-12-15T17:24:41Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I found it without any difficulty. > > [Yahoo](http://news.yahoo.com/iran-halts-nuclear-talks-us-blacklist-move-063122680.html) > [Reuters](http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/13/us-iran-nuclear-sanctions-idUSBRE9BC0CY20131213) > [The Wall Street Journal](http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304202204579255522757386950) OK. I did make an honest effort to find this on the news websites, but none was there. At any rate, this is exactly the sort of thing that demonstrates Iran’s eagerness to use any excuse it can find to scuttle talks and delay negotiations. However, I predict they will be back. As I said earlier, they have MUCH more to gain from these talks than we do. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/423 "2013-12-15T17:25:43Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Obama is not and must not be concerned or submissive to Iranians’ hurt feelings over this action of clamping down on violaters of existing sanctions. Obama cannot be concerned about Iranians’ hurt feelings but Congress must give peace a chance and not say or do anything that might undermine the moderates. In this case, the temerity of your double standard is only eclipsed by the gusto with which you propose it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/424 "2013-12-15T17:50:53Z")
The careful reader you are so concerned with is also likely to wonder why you think Iran is a single entity of one unified mind. You state in almost the same breath that Iran is eager to scuttle talks but will be back because they have so much to gain. Is there a change of unified mind predicted there? The single will of Iran thinks A today but will think B tomorrow? Here in America, we of the peacenik caucus almost invariably enjoy massive majority support, but usually only after the blood has been spilt and the treasure squandered. That’s when we hear the explanation that no, no effort to sabotage peace, but only to strengthen our negotiating position, as befits hard headed realists with an eye to the main chance. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/425 "2013-12-15T17:58:56Z")
The Iranian leadership, _in the person of the Grand Ayatollah_, if you prefer. They are a theocracy with a “Supreme Leader”. Something we lack. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/426 "2013-12-15T18:57:27Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Obama cannot be concerned about Iranians’ hurt feelings but Congress must give peace a chance and not say or do anything that might undermine the moderates. > > In this case, the temerity of your double standard is only eclipsed by the gusto with which you propose it. So you suffer from the same inability to distinguish between existing and new sanctions. I have not argued against saying ‘ **anything** ’ that might upset the moderates. Go back and read the record. I am against toughening or adding NEW sanctions to the existing sanctions. We still must enforce the sanctions that are in place and there is no double standard here at all for doing so. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/427 "2013-12-15T19:06:27Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I have not argued against saying ‘ **anything** ’ that might upset the moderates. Go back and read the record. I am against toughening or adding NEW sanctions to the existing sanctions. Why are you against new sanctions? I thought it was because new sanctions might cause the Iranians to scuttle negotiations. But you seem to be okay with more stringent enforcement of current sanctions EVEN IF it may cause Iran to scuttle negotiations. It’s totally a double standard. If Obama does it, it is okay. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/428 "2013-12-15T23:22:10Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The Iranian leadership, _in the person of the Grand Ayatollah_, if you prefer. > > They are a theocracy with a “Supreme Leader”. Something we lack. Well, that certainly settles _that_! All those other guys I been reading, make it all seem so complicated! Should have just asked you in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/429 "2013-12-15T23:52:46Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, that certainly settles _that_! > > All those other guys I been reading, make it all seem so complicated! Should have just asked you in the first place. You can’t even RUN for office unless you meet religious approval. And yes, that certainly settles it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/430 "2013-12-16T00:28:51Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, that certainly settles _that_! > > All those other guys I been reading, make it all seem so complicated! Should have just asked you in the first place. When you have a “Supreme Leader”, it actually isn’t very complicated. That title isn’t honorary or inaccurate. What he says goes. It’s generally understood that he allows the president some flexibility in dealing with internal matters, but not matters of foreign policy. If I’m wrong, I’m open to being corrected. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/431 "2013-12-16T03:28:08Z")
No doubt, but one can be entirely too simplistic without being the least bit wrong. Since I don’t have any certainties to offer against yours, I’ll confine myself to teasing you mildly in the hope that you will re-examine your own. And if you do, and find it nonetheless solid, well, bless your heart! ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/432 "2013-12-16T03:34:02Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I’ll confine myself to teasing you mildly in the hope that you will re-examine your own. And if you do, and find it nonetheless solid, well, bless your heart! Er…Did you just confess to trolling him? If not, what did you mean by “teasing him”? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/433 "2013-12-16T03:55:54Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Er…Did you just confess to trolling him? > > If not, what did you mean by “teasing him”? Actually, if anything were objectionable in that post it would be “bless your heart”. [See hear](http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bless+your+heart). But no offense taken. I’ll just take that as an inability to refute the argument. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/434 "2013-12-16T04:17:39Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > No doubt, but one can be entirely too simplistic without being the least bit wrong. Since I don’t have any certainties to offer against yours, I’ll confine myself to teasing you mildly in the hope that you will re-examine your own. And if you do, and find it nonetheless solid, well, bless your heart! It’s not something difficult to research. The hierarchy of Iran is simplistic and absolute in the same way North Korea is simplistic and absolute. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/435 "2013-12-16T04:51:49Z")
I see. So, when I see some guy spouting nonsense about the meaning and significance of Iranian elections, and the changes being compelled by a younger and less theological population, I can simply dismiss that as nonsensical, because you and **John** say so? And I don’t _refute_ your argument, **John** , because I am not pretentious enough to claim certainty when our sources within Iran are so limited. You are not hindered by my limitations, and more power to you. But with all due awe, I find it hard to believe that your sources are clearer and more informative than my own, because they are likely to be the same, i.e, through a glass darkly. Now, I won’t tell you I’m sure that you are wrong, because I’m not sure, couldn’t be sure. But I will suggest that your certainty is likely to be exaggerated. Indeed, almost has to be. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/436 "2013-12-16T05:02:42Z")
What part of “[absolute ruler](http://nerdcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/How-Iranian-Political-System-Works.jpg)” are you having a problem with? under this system of rule it’s possible for the legal system to pick prisoners out for[execution in retaliation for the actions of outside groups](http://www.policymic.com/articles/70733/iran-s-500-execution-spree-shatters-the-myth-of-hassan-rouhani-s-reform). The Supreme leader controls the court system, the military, and those who are allowed to run for election. Not that it matters because it doesn’t matter who gets voted in. He has veto power over them. In all matters. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/437 "2013-12-16T07:12:55Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I see. So, when I see some guy spouting nonsense about the meaning and significance of Iranian elections, and the changes being compelled by a younger and less theological population, I can simply dismiss that as nonsensical, because you and **John** say so? > > And I don’t _refute_ your argument, **John** , because I am not pretentious enough to claim certainty when our sources within Iran are so limited. You are not hindered by my limitations, and more power to you. But with all due awe, I find it hard to believe that your sources are clearer and more informative than my own, because they are likely to be the same, i.e, through a glass darkly. > > Now, I won’t tell you I’m sure that you are wrong, because I’m not sure, couldn’t be sure. But I will suggest that your certainty is likely to be exaggerated. Indeed, almost has to be. Well, bless your heart! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/438 "2013-12-16T07:57:12Z")
As well you might, being so much better informed than I. Perhaps you will share your sources of such concise and detailed fact? Hell, I’d like to be as sure about _anything_ as you are sure about this! How did you come by this encyclopedic knowledge that seems to have eluded so many lesser minds? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/439 "2013-12-16T11:33:29Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Why are you against new sanctions? I thought it was because new sanctions might cause the Iranians to scuttle negotiations. But you seem to be okay with more stringent enforcement of current sanctions EVEN IF it may cause Iran to scuttle negotiations. > > It’s totally a double standard. If Obama does it, it is okay. It’s because the Iranians agreed to the deal as Obama is enforcing it. A deal is a deal. I’m agsinst breaking the deal which is what imposing mewer tougher sanctions involves. OIF the Iranians break the deal they are wrong - if we break the deal we are wrong. That is simple. No double standard at all. You And Magiver are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/440 "2013-12-16T12:12:15Z")
Did the interim deal drop US enforcement of existing sanctions? Did the Iranians accept that within the terms of the deal. My answers are no and yes. What is yours? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300.md?page=23)