# Iran: More sanctions now or wait? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 19, 2013, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300 "2013-11-19T22:23:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/521 "2013-12-20T12:46:54Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I jumped to no such conclusion that all those Senators were neocons. That is a conclusion many of you all set up when I stated correctly that the antics in the letter to call for more sanctions after Iran went public with a desire to moderate their position was supportive of the neocon’s pro-war no-negotiating position. > > There’s a huge difference between being a neocon and non-neocons doing things that would definitely please the neocons and give them some slim hopes at having credibility. This is one of several problems with how you debate: you deliberately misread things and respond combatively. I said that you jumped to the incorrect conclusion that everyone who signed the letter was a neocon **or a Quisling**. Your post responds to only one part of what I said. And once again, you explain that you’re upset with the senators who signed a letter with neocons. _I’m saying that you’re accusing those senators of being Quislings._ I’ve summed up your position quite accurately, but you’re intent to make an argument out of something, I suppose. > [@](#): > > I am glad it looks as though saner heads are stopping them…and some of the original 76 may have become sane on this. You know, I said this almost a month ago. [Link.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16899538&postcount=226) Specifically, I wrote: “The letter isn’t as extreme as you’re making it out to be, **plus I will bet you anything that a decent number of those senators actually support the diplomatic path that’s been laid out.** ” Of course, you refused to acknowledge that point, but I understand why: you had not actually read the letter when we were discussing it at that point. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/522 "2013-12-20T13:05:00Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > “Spell check” isn’t the same as “content check.” I agree with that and I didn’t say it was the same. Knocking down another strawman are ya? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/523 "2013-12-20T13:10:45Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I agree with that and I didn’t say it was the same. Knocking down another strawman are ya? Were you not blaming spell check for mixing up Khomeini and Khamenei? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/524 "2013-12-20T17:16:06Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Were you not blaming spell check for mixing up Khomeini and Khamenei? No. What’s silly is you making a big deal about it since I used the correct spelling often as well. > [@Ravenman](#): > > This is one of several problems with how you debate: you deliberately misread things and respond combatively. I said that you jumped to the incorrect conclusion that everyone who signed the letter was a neocon **or a Quisling**. Your post responds to only one part of what I said. And once again, you explain that you’re upset with the senators who signed a letter with neocons. _I’m saying that you’re accusing those senators of being Quislings._ I’ve summed up your position quite accurately, but you’re intent to make an argument out of something, I suppose. > > You know, I said this almost a month ago. [Link.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16899538&postcount=226) Specifically, I wrote: “The letter isn’t as extreme as you’re making it out to be, **plus I will bet you anything that a decent number of those senators actually support the diplomatic path that’s been laid out.** ” Of course, you refused to acknowledge that point, but I understand why: you had not actually read the letter when we were discussing it at that point. I consider the Dems who signed the August letter to be quislings of the neocons that is why I didn’t contest the point. I didn’t say they were neocons and you were wrong about that. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/525 "2013-12-20T17:29:28Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Were you not blaming spell check for mixing up Khomeini and Khamenei? Go back to my reply to IBN. I apologized for not catching it. That is not blaming anyone but me. You are wrong again. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/526 "2013-12-20T17:31:22Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I consider the Dems who signed the August letter to be quislings of the neocons that is why I didn’t contest the point. I didn’t say they were neocons and you were wrong about that. See, I wasn’t wrong. This is another example of how you’re reading the English language differently than… well, everyone else on the planet. I summarized your view of the 76 senators as being “neocons and Quislings.” You’ve just responded that you believe they are neocons and Quislings, and you’re saying I’m wrong about your position? Seriously, what the hell? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/527 "2013-12-20T17:32:01Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Were you not blaming spell check for mixing up Khomeini and Khamenei? You can go back to my reply to IBN. I apologized for not catching it. That is not blaming anyone but me. You are wrong again. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/528 "2013-12-20T17:35:02Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > See, I wasn’t wrong. This is another example of how you’re reading the English language differently than… well, everyone else on the planet. > > I summarized your view of the 76 senators as being “neocons and Quislings.” You’ve just responded that you believe they are neocons and Quislings, and you’re saying I’m wrong about your position? Seriously, what the hell? Read it again - I stated clearly that I don’t consider them to be neocons but I do consider them to be quislings. You are still wrong. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/529 "2013-12-20T17:43:06Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I summarized your view of the 76 senators as being “neocons and Quislings.” The first definition of quislings is betraying one’s country by by aiding an invading army. If you mean that definition then you are wrong about that too. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/530 "2013-12-20T17:51:01Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Read it again - I stated clearly that I don’t consider them to be neocons but I do consider them to be quislings. You are still wrong. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > The first definition of quislings is betraying one’s country by by aiding an invading army. If you mean that definition then you are wrong about that too. [Looking around the room] Does anyone understand these two messages in succession? **NfbW** thinks the Democrats who signed the letter are Quislings, but I’m wrong to call them Quislings. Jesus Christ, these threads are like the yelling of the McLaughlin Group crossed with the weirdness of the Twilight Zone. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/531 "2013-12-20T18:00:28Z")
Here’s my point again: … there is no constructive reason to respond to Iranian gestures of moderation with calls for tougher sanctions if your true interest is finding a diplomatic solution… I consider any calls by members of Congress and from the right wing pundit machine for tougher sanctions after Rouhani professed a more moderate position last summer is an extreme and unreasonable position. Ravenman apparently thinks its wrong but not extreme. That difference of opinion is not worthy of making claims that I somehow consistently mishandle my use of the English language. What is the purpose of all that silliness? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/532 "2013-12-20T18:09:51Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > [Looking around the room] > > Does anyone understand these two messages in succession? **NfbW** thinks the Democrats who signed the letter are Quislings, but I’m wrong to call them Quislings. > > Jesus Christ, these threads are like the yelling of the McLaughlin Group crossed with the weirdness of the Twilight Zone. I said if you mean a literal definition of ‘Quislings’ to mean that I have said the signers of the letter are betraying their country by aiding an invading army then you are wrong. I never suggested that. I do accept characterizing the Dems as quislings for the neocons by supporting neocon views. But I don’t thin they are betraying their country by aiding an invading army, Just want to be clear since you brought the term quisling into the discussion. Why can’t you discuss content Ravenman. Do you think the antics in the Senate by 13 Dems and 13 Republicans this week is extreme and unwise and wrongheaded. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/533 "2013-12-20T18:10:49Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Does anyone understand these two messages in succession? **NfbW** thinks the Democrats who signed the letter are Quislings, but I’m wrong to call them Quislings. He means the Democrats are aiding an invading army. Except that definition, which he used, is wrong. So he was apparently aware that what he was saying was wrong. So you were wrong to agree with him that he was wrong. What could be simpler than that? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/534 "2013-12-20T18:16:33Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > He means the Democrats are aiding an invading army. . If you are referring to me that is plainly not true. I wrote the opposite of that. The rest of your reply is in error. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/535 "2013-12-20T18:33:39Z")
You said > [@](#): > > I do consider them to be quislings. and > [@](#): > > The first definition of quislings is betraying one’s country by by aiding an invading army. So you knew you were wrong by the first definition of the word when you used it. Why do you think it is appropriate to say things that you don’t mean? If you don’t use words to mean what everybody else means, then your posts are going to be gibberish. Of course, “going to be” is not strictly accurate - we passed the point several weeks ago where anybody, yourself included, knows what the fuck you are going on about. You didn’t read the letter that started all this, you don’t use words to mean the same things as the rest of us, and you seem to be working actively at pissing off even those who want to agree with you. Apart from that, you’re a heck of a debater. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/536 "2013-12-20T18:36:41Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I said if you mean a literal definition of ‘Quislings’ to mean that I have said the signers of the letter are betraying their country by aiding an invading army then you are wrong. I never suggested that. > > I do accept characterizing the Dems as quislings for the neocons by supporting neocon views. But I don’t thin they are betraying their country by aiding an invading army, > > Just want to be clear since you brought the term quisling into the discussion. . . . > > Do you think the antics in the Senate by 13 Dems and 13 Republicans this week is extreme and unwise and wrongheaded. What do you mean “Republicans?” Do you mean the party of Lincoln and Reagan? Do you mean the literal definition of republicans, which are individuals who believe in a representative form of government which balances the will of the people with the insulation of policymakers from the whims of the populace? Or might you mean the Republicans in the Spanish Civil War, who were allied with Communists, anarchists, and all sorts of unsavory people? And what do you mean by Democrats…? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/537 "2013-12-20T21:20:51Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > [Looking around the room] > > Does anyone understand these two messages in succession? **NfbW** thinks the Democrats who signed the letter are Quislings, but I’m wrong to call them Quislings. It’s not you. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/538 "2013-12-20T23:30:21Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It’s not you. What Ravenman wrote that I said is not supportable by what is written here. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2013, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/539 "2013-12-21T04:20:13Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > What Ravenman wrote that I said is not supportable by what is written here. Do you at least understand the problem with this exchange, and who made the mistake? > [@Ravenman](#): > > The source of your confusion is that you jumped to a poor conclusion, that everyone who signed the letter was a neocon or a Quisling. > > I think everyone else here understood that the 76 senators weren’t extremists on this issue. Seriously, we told you this like weeks ago. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I jumped to no such conclusion that all those Senators were neocons. That is a conclusion many of you all set up when I stated correctly that the antics in the letter to call for more sanctions after Iran went public with a desire to moderate their position was supportive of the neocon’s pro-war no-negotiating position. > > There’s a huge difference between being a neocon and non-neocons doing things that would definitely please the neocons and give them some slim hopes at having credibility. You are hugely wrong in what you just wrote. > [@Ravenman](#): > > I said that you jumped to the incorrect conclusion that everyone who signed the letter was a neocon **or a Quisling**. Your post responds to only one part of what I said. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I consider the Dems who signed the August letter to be quislings of the neocons that is why I didn’t contest the point. I didn’t say they were neocons and you were wrong about that. See what you did there? **You** added the “Dems” qualifier. **Ravenman** just wrote “the 76 Senators”, meaning Republicans and Democrats alike. He never said the Democrats were neocons. You evidently read it that way, and declared that **Ravenman** was both “hugely wrong” and “wrong”, when as you make clear in the last post I quoted above, _he was exactly right about your position._ You do this sort of thing _constantly_, and that’s why so many threads you post in end the same way. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2013, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/540 "2013-12-21T11:23:22Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by NotfooledbyW "What Ravenman wrote that I said is not supportable by what is written here. " > > Do you at least understand the problem with this exchange, and who made the mistake? -Human Action The problem is exactly what I said and that you cited right there above. Your decision to take sides without attempting to confirm with some degree of exactitude that what is being attributed to me is indeed credible confirms to me that the problem here is not mine. Another problem is that many prefer to take snippets of what I write and turn them into veiled personal attacks and this thread is a perfect example. The disagreement here largely surrounds my expressed view, that US Senators responding to signals of a new found desire by the Iranians for openness and moderation and in response to the toughest set of sanctions ever internationally applied in a potentially hostile standoff, is an extreme and needlessly hostile view that became newsworthy this past summer. And as this story has been playing out, I believe that my view is daily being vindicated. Do you have a problem with my viewpoint or not? So there I have once again tried to bring the discussion back on topic, and if further responses are hijacks of the subject matter of this thread I will not respond. I’d be glad as usual to hear your views on the topic, such as what is the significance of the rebuke of Senator Menendez by his fellow Dems that are chair-persons of many other committees? Do you believe the neocon agenda continues to exist and remain relevant to our dealings with Iran? Is responding to moderation by Iran with requests for adding tougher sanctions an extremist position? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300.md?page=28)