# Iran: More sanctions now or wait? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 19, 2013, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300 "2013-11-19T22:23:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2013, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/601 "2013-12-22T22:48:00Z")
There now is a hijack attempt based upon a personal attack that I have misinterpreted Ravenman’s comment and then reversed my argument. That is false and was not backed up. I have not reversed anything. That is a hijack. I won’t be drawn into hijacks of this topic that are nothing but personal attacks. Again does anyone agree with Magiver that Obama has delivered new sanctions? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2013, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/602 "2013-12-22T22:53:21Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I do not dissagree with you in that because you are accepting that it does not involve new sanctions. > > But I dissagree with your endorsement of Magiver because he states, “He’s delivering MORE sanctions”. > > Obama is not delivering more sanctions. The quantity of existing sanctions has not changed. > > You cannot refute that. I cited my statement to back it up. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2013, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/603 "2013-12-22T22:58:09Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I have not argued that Obama has not made enforcing existing sanctions more painful. He has. So I will not be hijacked into a discussion based on my incoherence with regard to that inaccurate claim. Now one who quit defending his flawed argument has posted a comment in redponse ti my statement that he conveniently cut in half. Desperation is setting in. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2013, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/604 "2013-12-22T22:59:09Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Ravenman was agreeing with Magiver that technically Obama is increasing (delivering) new sanctions. So Ravenman is not arguing that Obama is not creating new sanctions - Ravenman I believe is arguing that Magiver is technically correct to say that Obama is increasing new sanctions. So Tom&Debb you need to follow before commenting on where this thread had gone. No, you can’t fucking understand what I wrote. This is the OPPOSITE of what I said with respect to new sanctions. I’m not intending this as an insult, but is English your native tongue? Because I don’t know how to be any clearer about what I think of **Magiver** ’s view. I wrote it out twice, and you think I’m saying something 180 degrees of what I’ve written in very simple terms. I can only think of three possibilities here: you don’t actually take the time to read and absorb what others have written, you just cue in on a few terms and pounce on them; you have some awkwardness with the language, in which case I’m happy to cut some slack; or you’re just messing with me. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2013, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/605 "2013-12-22T23:01:52Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I cited my statement to back it up. You have cited something that shows that the quantity of existing sanctions against Iran has been increased within the past six months. When and Where? Has anyone seen that? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2013, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/606 "2013-12-22T23:18:35Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > And yes, I think **Magiver** is probably right that Obama is increasing sanctions, while technically being able to say that he isn’t creating new sanctions. > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by NotfooledbyW: "Ravenman I believe is arguing that Magiver is technically correct to say that Obama is increasing new sanctions. So Magiver is probably right that Obama is increasing sanctions is what Ravenman is saying despite the fact that there has been no increase in sanctions for over a year? And the misunderstanding is supposedly mine? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2013, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/607 "2013-12-22T23:30:34Z")
I never once said Obama instituted new sanctions. I don’t believe he did, and I don’t think that’s **Magiver** ’s point either. I’m saying Obama ratcheted up sanctions on Iran while still being able to say he didn’t institute new sanctions. The White House is effectively splitting hairs, and I don’t know how to explain that to someone who just is unable to understand nuances in foreign policy. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2013, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/608 "2013-12-22T23:33:51Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > You have cited something that shows that the quantity of existing sanctions against Iran has been increased within the past six months. When and Where? Has anyone seen that? You’ve been saying that Obama is simply increasing the application of existing sanctions and not implementing new ones. I think you said you endorse this because they are not new sanctions. You want us to cite what you have been saying for three pages, because you no longer believe what you’ve been saying for the last three pages? No, I won’t do that. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2013, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/609 "2013-12-22T23:34:50Z")
Let’s recall the OP: > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Congress is considering imposing additional sanctions on Iran. The Obama administration wants more time to negotiate. What to do? > > My thoughts are that we should let Obama do his job and hold off on new sanctions for now. It appears that we are talking directly with Iran for the first time in decades, they have a new leadership in place\*, and we already have crippling sanctions in place. However, I’m OK with giving Obama a time limit-- say 3 months-- to produce signs of progress after which point new sanctions are back on the table again. Pretty soon, though, we’ll have to be running out of new sanctions to impose, no? > > \*Of course the real power in Iran lies with the Council of Guardians-- unelected clerics headed up by Ayatollah Khamenei. The topic is whether additional sanctions should be imposed. The topic is not whether existing sanctions should be enforced. But now two posters are arguing that enforcing existing sanctions is the same as imposing new sanctions because that is what Obama is doing. I say they are different. Does anyone else dissagree? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2013, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/610 "2013-12-22T23:44:38Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You’ve been saying that Obama is simply increasing the application of existing sanctions and not implementing new ones. I think you said you endorse this because they are not new sanctions. No, it would be accurate to state that Ive been saying that Obama is enforcing existing sanctions as he should. Obama is, from what I’ve read, vehemently opposed to implementation of new ones. No new sanctions have been dwlivered by Obama. Bring on whatever you think you got. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2013, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/611 "2013-12-22T23:50:19Z")
If I am whipping your twice a day, and promise not to subject you to new forms of abuse, but increase the whipping to three times a day, have I kept my promise? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2013, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/612 "2013-12-22T23:52:35Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I never once said Obama instituted new sanctions. I don’t believe he did, and I don’t think that’s **Magiver** ’s point either. I’m saying Obama ratcheted up sanctions on Iran while still being able to say he didn’t institute new sanctions. The White House is effectively splitting hairs, and I don’t know how to explain that to someone who just is unable to understand nuances in foreign policy. If ratcheting up sanctions on Iran is the same as stepping up enforcement of existing sanctions then I agree with that. If you think it is delivering new sanctions as Magiver is claiming then I don’t agree at all. And that has been my argument all along. There are no new delivered sanctions. There has been some stepped up enforcement of existing sanctions and I have stated that Obama is correct to enforce existing sanctions. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2013, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/613 "2013-12-22T23:55:29Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > If I am whipping your twice a day, and promise not to subject you to new forms of abuse, but increase the whipping to three times a day, have I kept my promise? Ahhhhh. Do you have a source where the P5+1 promised not to enforce existing sanctions as part of this deal. I have addressed that earlier. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/614 "2013-12-23T00:17:47Z")
No, I don’t have a cite for the P5+1 promising to eliminate all whippings and abuse. Again, you simply aren’t understanding common speech. > [@](#): > > If ratcheting up sanctions on Iran is the same as stepping up enforcement of existing sanctions then I agree with that. If you think it is delivering new sanctions as Magiver is claiming then I don’t agree at all. And that has been my argument all along. Why has it taken several dozen posts to get this point across? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/615 "2013-12-23T01:45:01Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Why has it taken several dozen posts to get this point across? You are posting in English. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/616 "2013-12-23T02:08:50Z")
Magiver is alone in claiming that Obama has delivered new sanctions against Iran. That is because there is no way that anyone can say that he did. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/617 "2013-12-23T02:53:44Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > If I am whipping your twice a day, and promise not to subject you to new forms of abuse, but increase the whipping to three times a day, have I kept my promise? Is that a metaphor for Obama’s increase in the crackdown on violators of existing sanctions on Iran by the P5+1? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/618 "2013-12-23T02:54:03Z")
Nuance and spin can save countless lives. Iran says new sanctions are a deal breaker. Obama is pressed by hard-liners here to add new sanctions, even offered the opinion that new sanctions is the more moderate course when compared to the more efficacious option of direct military action. To appease those critics, he tightens restrictions on already extant sanctions, making life difficult for such companies who skirt the sanctions. Saying, signaling to Iran: these are not new sanctions, these are simply an enforcement of what already exists, therefore, there is no cause for Iran to feel as if the deal has been broken. Pure spin, offered first of all to save face on both sides, and secondly to reassure the Iranians that Obama is seriously interested in a peaceful settlement and not simply going through the motions. Does Iran have hardliners as well? Of course they do, that strain of idiot plagues all races and creeds of mankind. Its not just that they refuse to learn from history, and are doomed to repeat it, but they keep dragging the rest of us along! So, what might we reasonably surmise that the Iranian hardliners are saying? That the US is simply playing the prelude to a war, there is no sincerity in our offers, we are interested only in surrender. (Wherever do they get such notions?) The sane party (May the Goddess bless them and keep then secure to Her bosom all the days of their lives, amen…) make a gesture, they recall the delegation for “consultation”. The signal is meant that they take these measures seriously, but are willing to settle for a face-saving gesture, at least for the time being, for the sake of whatever scant hope may remain. And scant hope it is, too. But that scant hope is there because men on both sides put that hope there, and protected it in the face of resistance. That such men exist, hope for peace exists. Should the day come when there are no such people left, might as well start digging holes. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/619 "2013-12-23T03:21:18Z")
Here are several posts in English: > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > No matter what sanctions get eased there will remain sanctions in place that should not be violated. Are you in favor of existing sanctions being violated with no enforcement or response by the P5+1? > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Obama has been tough on Iran in the past including setting up tough new sanctions in the first place, So Obama has made many an Iranian unhappy too but rightfully so. > [@Magiver](#): > > and you are unable to distinguish between calling for new sanctions and actually delivering new sanctions. My response to Magiver: > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Obama has not delivered new sanctions. There is nothing for me to distinguish. > > Obama is enforcing existing sanctions not delivering new sanctions and you have been told that repeatedly. > > Obama says he will veto a bill that calls for new sanctions. He cannot be more opposed than that. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/620 "2013-12-23T04:14:16Z")
I think it would be more helpful if you requoted the entire thread, just in case someone missed something. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300.md?page=30) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300.md?page=32)