# Iran: More sanctions now or wait? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 19, 2013, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300 "2013-11-19T22:23:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 39
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/761 "2013-12-26T21:06:10Z")
Only in Chomskyland is that joke funny. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/762 "2013-12-26T21:12:58Z")
I wish it were a joke. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/763 "2013-12-26T21:20:10Z")
That’s a great repartee in Chomskyland. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/764 "2013-12-26T21:54:12Z")
As an all-American, flag waving red blooded radical lefty, I think Noam Chomsky is rather a good linguist, although I remain somewhat skeptical about notions of innate grammar. Be that as it may, _ad hominem_ is always pretty weak, second hand _ad hominem_ by inference and insinuation? Perhaps you are already embarassed by that, lets be generous and assume so. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/765 "2013-12-26T22:15:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > …Do they all need to beg forgiveness, too? Or is just the mean ol’ USA that has to do so? It wasn’t one of our better moments, was it? Somewhere north of a hundred thousand innocent Iraqi citizens dead. We don’t have a really good number for that, ghosts don’t answer a census. Quite a few, though. For no reason whatsoever. Perhaps, for the sake of good form and propriety, even a half-hearted apology might be in order. Don’t recall ever hearing one. Do you? If we are to have peace with Iran…even a tentative, prickly peace…they are going to have to trust us, at least to some degree. Have we given them any good reason to trust us? What we did was wrong, **John**. Terribly wrong. Mocking people who recognize that, and recognize that it has consequences, isn’t realistic. Look into your heart for the answer: if you were not an American, would you trust America? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/766 "2013-12-26T22:17:45Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > I don’t disagree with you that there are far too many Americans who ignorantly believed what your impression of Americans seems to suggest. -NotfooledbyW > > Worse is that it’s not their fault because the ignorance you speak of is misinformation (fabricated, bred and nurtured by government) - controlled and supported by the population through “everybody knows that XXX …” false info. -Riga Marole I tend to blame American’s sometime extreme ignorance on foreign policy and matters of military action around the world to be more related to an absolute lack of any sense of the need for personal responsibility to become informed fully with a curious framing of the details and facts that would be available to them with just a little effort on their part to get it. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/767 "2013-12-26T23:57:27Z")
> [@Riga\_Marole](#): > > _ **” a historically belligerent dictatorship”** _ > You are now actively contributing to those _”far too many Americans who ignorantly believe that my impression of Americans seems to suggest”_. > > _ **”its belligerent tone”** _ > Here once again you are taking the tone that sticks in the throat of those whose future we have on the table. > > \*\*\*”historically hostile states such as Iran”. \*\*\* > You see. You can’t help it. Do you really think anyone would be willing to cooperate with you if you insist on repeating lies and misinformed accusations? > > Your response here, though cordial to me, is decidedly hostile towards Iran. That is not how to seek solutions to problems or create an open dialog. But you see, just as I said in my opening sentence …… it isn’t your fault. > > THE SIMPLE BOTTOM LINE … The U.S. is hinting, _“We’ll forgive you if you bla. bla. bla.”_ You don’t understand what I’m saying, do you. The way forward vis-à-vis the U.S. and Iran is for the U.S. to ask Iran to forgive THEM. Not the other way round. Naturally, if you have been dumbed-down by your government (as your comments indicate) then how can you see the situation for what it really is? The US government did not create an impression and instill it in my mind that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Saddam Hussein were belligerent toward the West and toward Israel. The US givernment could not convince me that after 2002 Saddam Hussen continued to be belligerent after he allowed the UN inspectors back in and was cooperating ever so proactively prior to the US invasion. And likewise at the present moment the US givernment at least the Adminisrration did not convince me that Rouhani is not really a moderate and does not want to complete a peaceful deal. The Obama Admin is arguing the opposite of what you are claiming. I recognize moderation and cooperation as I see it. And Saw it in 2003 and I see it right now. I was not fooled by Dubya and it is my contention that Obama is not trying to fool any of us now. That effort begins at the American Enterprise Institute and flows into the public mind through Fix News and the conservative radio talk network. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/768 "2013-12-27T00:04:01Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > As an all-American, flag waving red blooded radical lefty, I think Noam Chomsky is rather a good linguist, although I remain somewhat skeptical about notions of innate grammar. Be that as it may, _ad hominem_ is always pretty weak, second hand _ad hominem_ by inference and insinuation? Perhaps you are already embarassed by that, lets be generous and assume so. Shall we have a handshake on refraining in the future on the tu quoque, then? Seems like a fair deal. Shoot, I would settle from you acknowledgement of your past arguments as being such, rather than the pleas of “But it IS relevant!” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/769 "2013-12-27T00:26:38Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > It wasn’t one of our better moments, was it? Somewhere north of a hundred thousand innocent Iraqi citizens dead. We don’t have a really good number for that, ghosts don’t answer a census. Quite a few, though. For no reason whatsoever. Perhaps, for the sake of good form and propriety, even a half-hearted apology might be in order. Don’t recall ever hearing one. Do you? > > If we are to have peace with Iran…even a tentative, prickly peace…they are going to have to trust us, at least to some degree. Have we given them any good reason to trust us? > > What we did was wrong, **John**. Terribly wrong. Mocking people who recognize that, and recognize that it has consequences, isn’t realistic. Look into your heart for the answer: if you were not an American, would you trust America? It’s their choice. They can trust or not. If I were then, I’d go for trust. They have much, much more to lose than we do. Besides, after a disastrous war, we seem to be good for about 30 years. But frankly, we have to apologize to Iran about wrt Iraq. We are talking about Iran here. In fact, we seem to have done them a rather nice favor on that point. Now, did you have an answer to the questions I asked? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/770 "2013-12-27T00:40:52Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s their choice. They can trust or not. If I were then, I’d go for trust. They have much, much more to lose than we do. Besides, after a disastrous war, we seem to be good for about 30 years. But frankly, we have to apologize to Iran about wrt Iraq. We are talking about Iran here. In fact, we seem to have done them a rather nice favor on that point. Ugh, so many typos… If I were them But frankly, what do we have to apologize to Iran for [del]about[/del] wrt Iraq? ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/771 "2013-12-27T00:47:21Z")
I haven’t heard a peep from him-earlier, he was talking about how iran was on the verge of making an A-bomb. Why the silence? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/772 "2013-12-27T02:09:40Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I haven’t heard a peep from him-earlier, he was talking about how iran was on the verge of making an A-bomb. > Why the silence? It’s because he doesn’t like you. ---
**Author:** ![Riga\_Marole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riga_marole/32/7316_2.png) [@Riga\_Marole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riga_Marole)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/773 "2013-12-27T04:57:28Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What about the UK, France, China, Russia and Germany? Do they need to beg forgiveness, too? What about Argentina, Republic of Congo, Denmark, Ghana, Greece, Japan, Peru, Qatar, Slovakia, and Tanzania? All signers of UNSC Resolution 1737. Do they all need to beg forgiveness, too? Or is just the mean ol’ USA that has to do so? Read my reply once again … > [@Riga\_Marole](#): > > THE SIMPLE BOTTOM LINE … The U.S. is hinting, _“We’ll forgive you if you bla. bla. bla.”_ You don’t understand what I’m saying, do you. The way forward vis-à-vis the U.S. and Iran is for the U.S. to ask Iran to forgive THEM. Not the other way round. Naturally, if you have been dumbed-down by your government (as your comments indicate) then how can you see the situation for what it really is? Note, \*\*\*“vis-à-vis the U.S. and Iran” \*\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Riga\_Marole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riga_marole/32/7316_2.png) [@Riga\_Marole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riga_Marole)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/774 "2013-12-27T05:02:41Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Well which of those countries has been the meanest to Iran? > Oh, and Canada of course. It bears 2.346% responsibility in this. As much as 2.346% !? Oh my God! Wait till Iran hears of this, they’ll want to discontinue import of Canada Goose jackets for sure! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Riga\_Marole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riga_marole/32/7316_2.png) [@Riga\_Marole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riga_Marole)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/775 "2013-12-27T05:06:22Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > I don’t understand. > > “The CIA is right because Iraq.” What does that mean? He might have been trying to say, “The CIA is right because Iraq kicked America’s ass” but the words got stuck in his throat at the very end. ---
**Author:** ![Riga\_Marole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riga_marole/32/7316_2.png) [@Riga\_Marole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riga_Marole)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/776 "2013-12-27T05:19:00Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I tend to blame American’s sometime extreme ignorance on foreign policy and matters of military action around the world to be more related to an absolute lack of any sense of the need for personal responsibility to become informed fully with a curious framing of the details and facts that would be available to them with just a little effort on their part to get it. I’ll have to defend your countrymen on this point. The only truth **available to Americans** these days is what they read in **Wikileaks** , **Manning** dispatches, and what **Snowden** reveals while talking in his sleep. Here in my country, if I want to know what’s happening in the world I can turn on the TV and see interviews and documentary films from virtually every nation in the world. These without politically biased talking heads’ comments of praising or discrediting the premise of the film. Everything is in the original language with subtitles. In this way we are not only allowed, but encouraged to make up our own minds. Americans do not have this source of information, what we call freedom of choice, freedom of expression, freedom of speech, well … DEMOCRACY. ---
**Author:** ![Riga\_Marole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riga_marole/32/7316_2.png) [@Riga\_Marole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riga_Marole)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/777 "2013-12-27T05:54:24Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > The US government did not create an impression and instill it in my mind that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Saddam Hussein were belligerent toward the West and toward Israel. The US givernment could not convince me that after 2002 Saddam Hussen continued to be belligerent after he allowed the UN inspectors back in and was cooperating ever so proactively prior to the US invasion. And likewise at the present moment the US givernment at least the Adminisrration did not convince me that Rouhani is not really a moderate and does not want to complete a peaceful deal. The Obama Admin is arguing the opposite of what you are claiming. > > I recognize moderation and cooperation as I see it. And Saw it in 2003 and I see it right now. I was not fooled by Dubya and it is my contention that Obama is not trying to fool any of us now. That effort begins at the American Enterprise Institute and flows into the public mind through Fix News and the conservative radio talk network. I assume you are fortunate by the fact that you are not lazy. But really, education is the yearn to learn … and then make it happen. All in all, the U.S. is not an educated population, derived by the fact that there reside an enormous number of illiterate and semi-illiterate citizens. I recently got an e-post (from an American acquaintance) that is so full of misspelled words and rotten grammar that it’s impossible to understand how English can be considered the _lingua franca_ of the United States. The point is, with such a population that can hardly read - and have little or no interest in education - would it not be reasonable to say that these people won’t be cross-checking official government statements or seeking out information other than asking their neighbour what time the 7-11 is open? These things are the fault of the government … **not** the fault of the population. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/778 "2013-12-27T06:03:53Z")
> [@Riga\_Marole](#): > > Read my reply once again … > > Note, \*\*\*“vis-à-vis the U.S. and Iran” \*\*\* Eh. When you’re ready to post in plain language and answer simple yes/no questions let us know. I’m not into trying to decode your cryptic postings. ---
**Author:** ![Riga\_Marole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riga_marole/32/7316_2.png) [@Riga\_Marole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riga_Marole)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/779 "2013-12-27T06:06:45Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s their choice. They can trust or not. If I were then, I’d go for trust. They have much, much more to lose than we do. We’re speaking about Iran, yes? _ **“much, much more to lose”** _? What might that be exactly? What is it they will lose if they continue with whatever it is that you and the U.S. want them to stop with? Please feel free to open your mind and enlighten me. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > But frankly, we have to apologize to Iran about wrt Iraq. No. You have go apologize to Iran about Iran. ---
**Author:** ![Riga\_Marole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riga_marole/32/7316_2.png) [@Riga\_Marole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riga_Marole)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/780 "2013-12-27T06:09:08Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Eh. When you’re ready to post in plain language and answer simple yes/no questions let us know. I’m not into trying to decode your cryptic postings. Oh, I see. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300.md?page=38) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300.md?page=40)