# Iran: More sanctions now or wait? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 19, 2013, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300 "2013-11-19T22:23:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 40
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/781 "2013-12-27T06:33:10Z")
> [@Riga\_Marole](#): > > Here in my country, if I want to know what’s happening in the world I can turn on the TV and see interviews and documentary films from virtually every nation in the world. Which country is this, and how is it that the public of your country knows what your intelligence services are doing? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/782 "2013-12-27T06:35:53Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > …Now, did you have an answer to the questions I asked? Oh, it was a sincere question? Sorry, I was misled by the tone of mockery and breezy contempt. Like this: > [@](#): > > …Do they all need to beg forgiveness, too? Or is just the mean ol’ USA that has to do so?.. Beg forgiveness? No, if for no other reasons than we simply wouldn’t do it. We should, in my estimation, at least acknowledge the gravity of our error. Upwards of one hundred thousand dead innocent people is beyond a “whatever”. We ought at least _pretend_ we think their lives were precious and worthy. If you want to parse out the seperate levels of responsibility between the US and Gabon, I won’t try to stop you, however much it seems a pointless exercise. But you mean no such thing, do you, that’s just plain snark, isn’t it? And if I was so dense as to miss the tone of that…“mean ol’ USA” should have erased all doubt. No, **John** , that wasn’t a question, that was a sneer. I know I’m probably not as smart as I think I am, but thank the Lord I’m not as dumb as you seem to think I am. ---
**Author:** ![Riga\_Marole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riga_marole/32/7316_2.png) [@Riga\_Marole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riga_Marole)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/783 "2013-12-27T07:15:07Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Which country is this, and how is it that the public of your country knows what your intelligence services are doing? How is it that the public of my country knows what our intelligence services are doing? Ah! This we know thanks to an Australian and two of the greatest Americans of all time! Julian Assange, Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/784 "2013-12-27T07:17:36Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Upwards of one hundred thousand dead innocent people is beyond a “whatever”. We ought at least _pretend_ we think their lives were precious and worthy. What does 100,000 unjustified Iraqi deaths have to do with us groveling to Iran? We all know why the war in Iraq happened: because Bush pulled out all the stops to make it happen, and in the end, the coalition of the willing was what, like four countries that went with us? For the hundredth time: the Iran nuclear issue isn’t about US unilateralism. Ask the P5+1. Ask the UN Secretary General. Ask the rotating members of the Security Council who have voted nearly unanimously to pressure Iran into doing the right thing. Iran is not Iraq, just like it isn’t Vietnam, Korea, Bosnia, Sudan, the Falklands, Syria, or anything else in US foreign policy. Iran is Iran. Iraq is Iraq. This insistence to see everything that happens through the lens of Iraq is simply facile, and in the same line of defective polarized thinking that has led to dozens of predictions about the US war on Iran being just weeks away. Wake up, smell the coffee, and deal with reality on reality’s terms. Iran is a much different situation in Iraq in 2003, and we have got to deal with real foreign policy problems rather than pretending that everything is a repeat of the Bush/Cheney/Wolfowitz debacle. For one thing, we now have a president who promised to get out of Iraq, and we did. Another thing, we now have a president who can run a foreign policy on a major issue that involves the US sitting side by side with France, Germany, Russia, and many other countries to achieve goals that are common to all those countries. That’s a very good thing, and the way most of our foreign policy should be run. Besides, Iran seems reasonably content with their position in the world following the Iraq war: they have lost a major enemy, they have a friendly government in Baghdad, and they are using that to their full advantage. ---
**Author:** ![Riga\_Marole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riga_marole/32/7316_2.png) [@Riga\_Marole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riga_Marole)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/785 "2013-12-27T07:22:05Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Wake up, smell the coffee, and deal with reality on reality’s terms. This interesting … :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/786 "2013-12-27T07:29:52Z")
Uh-oh, it’s big font time! That’ll convince the masses! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/787 "2013-12-27T07:42:55Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > What does 100,000 unjustified Iraqi deaths have to do with us groveling to Iran? … My interest in finding a peaceful detente with Tehran is, so far as you are concerned, “groveling”? I fear we have no reasonable basis for conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/788 "2013-12-27T07:58:21Z")
Well, groveling isn’t necessary (or useful, I expect) in improving relations with Iran. Just don’t forget what you’re dealing with. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/789 "2013-12-27T08:05:21Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s their choice. They can trust or not. If I were then, I’d go for trust. They have much, much more to lose than we do. :dubious: That makes no sense at all. They have more to lose so they should be trusting? On the contrary; that’s a reason to be less trusting. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/790 "2013-12-27T08:13:35Z")
Make them a peace offer they can’t refuse. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/791 "2013-12-27T08:19:17Z")
Put a camel’s head in their bed! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/792 "2013-12-27T10:31:56Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Oh, it was a sincere question? Sorry, I was misled by the tone of mockery and breezy contempt. Oh, so now you’re pulling the sensitivity card. Physician, heal thyself. > [@](#): > > Beg forgiveness? No, if for no other reasons than we simply wouldn’t do it. We should, in my estimation, at least acknowledge the gravity of our error. Upwards of one hundred thousand dead innocent people is beyond a “whatever”. We ought at least _pretend_ we think their lives were precious and worthy. The US is responsible for 100,000 dead in Iran? If you mean Iraq, then there is nothing to apologize to Iran about. As I noted above, we did them the biggest favor with Bush’s little war adventure. But since you admit that we aren’t going to apologize, then harping that we should do so doesn’t seem like much of an interesting debate. > [@](#): > > If you want to parse out the seperate levels of responsibility between the US and Gabon, I won’t try to stop you, however much it seems a pointless exercise. But you mean no such thing, do you, that’s just plain snark, isn’t it? And if I was so dense as to miss the tone of that…“mean ol’ USA” should have erased all doubt. > > No, **John** , that wasn’t a question, that was a sneer. I know I’m probably not as smart as I think I am, but thank the Lord I’m not as dumb as you seem to think I am. Oh, please. You are now going to complain about snark? _YOU???_ The New Year isn’t far away. Perhaps a certain Resolution would be in order? And really, what is this… the nth time you’ve insisted I think you’re not smart? Best to stick to what I write. None of us is a mind reader, so let’s not pretend we are. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/793 "2013-12-27T12:46:12Z")
> [@Riga\_Marole](#): > > I assume you are fortunate by the fact that you are not lazy. But really, education is the yearn to learn … and then make it happen. > > All in all, the U.S. is not an educated population, derived by the fact that there reside an enormous number of illiterate and semi-illiterate citizens. I recently got an e-post (from an American acquaintance) that is so full of misspelled words and rotten grammar that it’s impossible to understand how English can be considered the _lingua franca_ of the United States. The point is, with such a population that can hardly read - and have little or no interest in education - would it not be reasonable to say that these people won’t be cross-checking official government statements or seeking out information other than asking their neighbour what time the 7-11 is open? These things are the fault of the government … **not** the fault of the population. The U.S. literacy rate is [99%](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_rate), the same as Japan, the UK, Canada, Denmark, Australia, and Germany. I’m sorry you got an email with poor spelling. I can relate, I once heard a Swedish song I didn’t like, so I know all Swedes are terrible musicians. For someone who writes at such length about the U.S., you sure don’t seem to know much about it. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/794 "2013-12-27T12:47:25Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > My interest in finding a peaceful detente with Tehran is, so far as you are concerned, “groveling”? I fear we have no reasonable basis for conversation. It isn’t like we we discussing substance anyway. I make a long post with substantive points, and you zero in on one word that you don’t like. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/795 "2013-12-27T12:48:45Z")
> [@Riga\_Marole](#): > > How is it that the public of my country knows what our intelligence services are doing? > > Ah! This we know thanks to an Australian and two of the greatest Americans of all time! Julian Assange, Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden! 🙂 Sounds like the people in your country are no better or worse informed than Americans. So much for your criticism of Americans being uninformed! For the record, we have movies here, too. ---
**Author:** ![Riga\_Marole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riga_marole/32/7316_2.png) [@Riga\_Marole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riga_Marole)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/796 "2013-12-27T13:55:13Z")
> [@Riga\_Marole](#): > > How is it that the public of my country knows what our intelligence services are doing? > > Ah! This we know thanks to an Australian and two of the greatest Americans of all time! Julian Assange, Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden! 🙂 > [@Ravenman](#): > > Sounds like the people in your country are no better or worse informed than Americans. So much for your criticism of Americans being uninformed! So your intelligence services control what you know about the world, in addition to what you know about its own secrets??? Really??? Well, that explains why the people in your country know as little about what goes on in the world as it knows about its own patch of earth. I’d say that your censorship is **COMPLETE**. ---
**Author:** ![Riga\_Marole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riga_marole/32/7316_2.png) [@Riga\_Marole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riga_Marole)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/797 "2013-12-27T14:00:28Z")
Since Iran isn’t going to cease its nuclear endeavours, then harping that it should do so doesn’t seem like much of an interesting debate. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/798 "2013-12-27T14:01:35Z")
> [@Riga\_Marole](#): > > So your intelligence services control what you know about the world, in addition to what you know about its own secrets??? Really??? > > Well, that explains why the people in your country know as little about what goes on in the world as it knows about its own patch of earth. I’d say that your censorship is **COMPLETE**. You claim that your country is better informed, and yet you say you’re getting your information on this topic from the same sources that Americans are. It seems that transitive properties are not well understood in your country: if a = b, and b = c, then a = c. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/799 "2013-12-27T14:01:52Z")
> [@Riga\_Marole](#): > > Since Iran isn’t going to cease its nuclear endeavours, then harping that it should do so doesn’t seem like much of an interesting debate. Are you accusing Iran of negotiating in bad faith, then? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300/800 "2013-12-27T14:04:02Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > :dubious: That makes no sense at all. They have more to lose so they should be trusting? On the contrary; that’s a reason to be less trusting. They have more to lose if no deal is struck. Do you disagree? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300.md?page=39) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iran-more-sanctions-now-or-wait/674300.md?page=41)